Israel

[gulfofaden]

Oct 8, 2023 7:36:05 GMT yattongas said:

Oct 8, 2023 7:17:30 GMT gashead79 said:

Peace plan by foreigners Yatton.
Only Trump got into it with any venom whereas other leaders like ours just comment from the sidelines.

Just read it , rejected out of hand . You honestly think that Trump has the answers to the conflict? 😂

Gotta admit I know far too little to have an opinion but will leave this conversation to experts like yourself & Trump 🤦‍♂️

World stability took a nose dive the moment a senile member of the corporate swamp took office.

I’m not necessarily saying Donald Trump is the answer, although his presidency was possibly the most peaceful of any president in modern history. Just not Joe Biden and the democrats in current form.

The world is in conflict as they know the boss’s office is empty.

You can’t seriously think it’s a coincidence all of this happens: Ukraine, Afghanistan, now this, sprung up about the moment he got in?

The US democrats are in the pocket of corporate America. And they want wars and expansion.

DT was, for all his faults, a bit of an island in this regard. He was pretty open about calling the political establishment out for what they are.

[gulfofaden]

General comment on this situation.

Heart will always be with Isreal. The Jewish contribution to European and world history is immense. They are over represented in almost every field which moves the human race forward. Isreal has one of the most tolerant and open societies in the Middle East. Their youth love their clubs and dance music, just like Europeans. I feel much more cultural familiarity with Isreal than the Islamic Arab world.

However, I have sympathy for the Palestinians as this region has been a historic tug of war between competing parties and they have found themselves on the wrong end.

Israel has a tiny strip of land, surrounded by vast empires. Every time their neighbours have felt strong enough, they’ve tried to genocide them. Isreal have offered a two state solution, and it’s not wanted. The demand is: Leave this land permanently.

You can’t negotiate from this position, so it will always be war.

This ends either by the collapse of Isreal and it’s dismantling by its neighbours, or by Isreal taking more land and enforcing its rule more harshly, or the third option, is that Hamas accepts a two state solution.

The majority of Palestinians want a full reclamation and the end of Isreal.

My feeling is that Palestine should accept Isreal’s right to exist alongside them. That’s what this boils down to.

[stuart1974]

Oct 10, 2023 7:59:51 GMT gulfofaden said:

Oct 8, 2023 7:36:05 GMT yattongas said:

Just read it , rejected out of hand . You honestly think that Trump has the answers to the conflict? 😂

Gotta admit I know far too little to have an opinion but will leave this conversation to experts like yourself & Trump 🤦‍♂️

World stability took a nose dive the moment a senile member of the corporate swamp took office.

I’m not necessarily saying Donald Trump is the answer, although his presidency was possibly the most peaceful of any president in modern history. Just not Joe Biden and the democrats in current form.

The world is in conflict as they know the boss’s office is empty.

You can’t seriously think it’s a coincidence all of this happens: Ukraine, Afghanistan, now this, sprung up about the moment he got in?

The US democrats are in the pocket of corporate America. And they want wars and expansion.

DT was, for all his faults, a bit of an island in this regard. He was pretty open about calling the political establishment out for what they are.

No, not really. Trump's visible disengagement with Nato and Afghanistan (and the wider world) emboldened Putin. Ukraine didn't happen overnight. The deal with the Taliban was Trump's deal, Biden enacted it.

[Gassy]

Oct 10, 2023 8:11:25 GMT stuart1974 said:

Oct 10, 2023 7:59:51 GMT gulfofaden said:

World stability took a nose dive the moment a senile member of the corporate swamp took office.

I’m not necessarily saying Donald Trump is the answer, although his presidency was possibly the most peaceful of any president in modern history. Just not Joe Biden and the democrats in current form.

The world is in conflict as they know the boss’s office is empty.

You can’t seriously think it’s a coincidence all of this happens: Ukraine, Afghanistan, now this, sprung up about the moment he got in?

The US democrats are in the pocket of corporate America. And they want wars and expansion.

DT was, for all his faults, a bit of an island in this regard. He was pretty open about calling the political establishment out for what they are.

No, not really. Trump's visible disengagement with Nato and Afghanistan (and the wider world) emboldened Putin. Ukraine didn't happen overnight. The deal with the Taliban was Trump's deal, Biden enacted it.

Quite unbelievable someone can actually think the above tbh. It would be nice to see the right accept blame for something rather than always passing the buck

[gulfofaden]

Oct 10, 2023 8:24:34 GMT Gassy said:

Oct 10, 2023 8:11:25 GMT stuart1974 said:

No, not really. Trump's visible disengagement with Nato and Afghanistan (and the wider world) emboldened Putin. Ukraine didn't happen overnight. The deal with the Taliban was Trump's deal, Biden enacted it.

Quite unbelievable someone can actually think the above tbh. It would be nice to see the right accept blame for something rather than always passing the buck

For goodness sake take your medicine.

[oldie]

Oct 9, 2023 22:49:23 GMT wertongas said:

Oct 9, 2023 18:35:26 GMT oldie said:

It goes way back Baggins.
Started with the Balfour Declaration in 1917. Followed by the carve up of Mesopotamia by us and the French.

Homelands of the locals? Pffft...

Judah and Isarel existed long before Palistine, it was formed before the Roman Empire , unfortunatly most seem to think this is a recent conflict and don't learn their history. 
Isarel has a right to have its own lands back, there are plenty of large Arab countries that could accomodate a small Palastinian state.

On that basis the Picts should be given the UK.
Your proposition is ridiculous.

We can only talk of the modern age, ie post 1850.

[oldie]

Oct 10, 2023 8:50:35 GMT gulfofaden said:

Oct 10, 2023 8:24:34 GMT Gassy said:

Quite unbelievable someone can actually think the above tbh. It would be nice to see the right accept blame for something rather than always passing the buck

For goodness sake take your medicine.

Such a profound response

[oldie]

Oct 10, 2023 8:07:55 GMT gulfofaden said:

General comment on this situation.

Heart will always be with Isreal. The Jewish contribution to European and world history is immense. They are over represented in almost every field which moves the human race forward. Isreal has one of the most tolerant and open societies in the Middle East. Their youth love their clubs and dance music, just like Europeans. I feel much more cultural familiarity with Isreal than the Islamic Arab world.

However, I have sympathy for the Palestinians as this region has been a historic tug of war between competing parties and they have found themselves on the wrong end.

Israel has a tiny strip of land, surrounded by vast empires. Every time their neighbours have felt strong enough, they’ve tried to genocide them. Isreal have offered a two state solution, and it’s not wanted. The demand is: Leave this land permanently.

You can’t negotiate from this position, so it will always be war.

This ends either by the collapse of Isreal and it’s dismantling by its neighbours, or by Isreal taking more land and enforcing its rule more harshly, or the third option, is that Hamas accepts a two state solution.

The majority of Palestinians want a full reclamation and the end of Isreal.

My feeling is that Palestine should accept Isreal’s right to exist alongside them. That’s what this boils down to.

And the Arabs into southern Spain did not have a profound influence?
Did someone mention mathematics?

Just for you GoA
"The Moors brought with them a richness of culture and learning that was sorely missing from Medieval Christian society. Arriving with translations of the Greek masters (Archimedes, Pythagoras and the philosopher Ptolemy), the Moors established robust institutions of learning, including well-stocked libraries. They set about improving agriculture, astronomy, architecture, science and mathematics. They called their new land Al-Andalus.

The locals were still using the Roman numeral system (I, II, III, IV, ...), but the Moors introduced a much better system of numbers (derived from India via the middle east and Alexandria), called the Hindu-Arabic number system."

Meanwhile, over at the Daily Mail

[oldie]

Oct 10, 2023 7:50:51 GMT stuart1974 said:

Oct 10, 2023 5:54:34 GMT trevorgas said:

Thanks Stuart,the UN recognition was instrumental in creating the mess we now have,with hindsight was that right?

Don't think there was much that could be done, the die was cast long before.

The whole sorry saga goes back to Anglo-French rivalries, in fact Sykes-Picot was in many ways an attempt to keep the Entante Cordiale together in the dark days of the First World War. The Balfour Declaration was a further attempt to garner influence, we looked to keep Jews onside in Palestine while the French backed Christians in their area of Lebanon and Syria. Both did so for political rather than idealistic reasons.

Even during the Second World War, de Gaulle kept up support for those fighting British rule and while we eventually 'ousted' French influence from Syria and Lebanon, through this French support in the 20s, 30s and 40s, it led to the formation of many of the insurgency groups that we ended up fighting during the Mandate period such as Irgun and the Stern Gang. The modern day Likud party is the grandchild of Irgun.

It also shaped de Gaulle's view of us and according to James Barr's 'A line in the sand' it caused him to reject our admission to "his club" in the 1950s and 60s as we couldn't be trusted by him.

The period between 1917 and 1948 was full of double standards, betrayal, idealism, side deals, swapping sides and more.

I certainly recommend Barr's book.

The Second World War meant that arms became more readily available, experienced soldiers swelled the ranks and the limits on immigration and also other restrictions like buying property caused further resentment.

Eventually we said we aren't doing this any more. The original British plan was one nation with autonomous regions but that was leaked and died quickly. The UN plan was for a qualified partition retaining certain links but that was rejected, later seen by many as a mistake, including Mahmood Abbas.

When we left it caused a power vacuum which the Israelis filled and Trueman then recognised it as a legitimate government.

I don't think any single event is the cause or any party comes out of this well, and its not just those mentioned as others also had an influence in one way or another.

However, whilst how we got here is interesting and in parts, useful, it doesn't justify, or in my view even mitigate, what has happened here. Israel has been attacked by terrorists and has the right to defend itself. I do hope that (a) Israel shows some restaint and doesn't become what it is fighting, and (b) people don't associate Hamas with the wider Palestinian cause. Those scenes on the streets of London are disheartening and certain Labour politicians should hold their counsil.

Israel needs to use this to target the Hamas leadership and get the peace process back on track.

As always Stuart, your provide research and reason.
But where I differ is that I challenge the presumed divine right of Western Europeans, in this case the UK and France, to have the right to any of what you describe.

We did not, we do not, we ignored the wishes and plight of the local population and after we licked our wounds of defeat we left Palestine in a bloody mess and countless refugees.

Meanwhile, in 1952, just four years later we, along with the CIA engineered a coup in Iran. You can draw a straight line from that act to 1979 in Tehran, and to where we are today.

[stuart1974]

Oct 10, 2023 9:03:11 GMT oldie said:

Oct 9, 2023 22:49:23 GMT wertongas said:

Judah and Isarel existed long before Palistine, it was formed before the Roman Empire , unfortunatly most seem to think this is a recent conflict and don't learn their history. 
Isarel has a right to have its own lands back, there are plenty of large Arab countries that could accomodate a small Palastinian state.

On that basis the Picts should be given the UK.
Your proposition is ridiculous.

We can only talk of the modern age, ie post 1850.

To be fair we can't go back in time, so whilst we need to understand the past (and I wouldn't put an arbitrary date on that) we have to deal with things as they are today.

[yattongas]

Oct 10, 2023 8:24:34 GMT Gassy said:

Oct 10, 2023 8:11:25 GMT stuart1974 said:

No, not really. Trump's visible disengagement with Nato and Afghanistan (and the wider world) emboldened Putin. Ukraine didn't happen overnight. The deal with the Taliban was Trump's deal, Biden enacted it.

Quite unbelievable someone can actually think the above tbh. It would be nice to see the right accept blame for something rather than always passing the buck

Pretty sure Gulf just drops the odd nonsense post on here for fun & giggles . Nobody in their right mind could think Trump was the answer to anything let alone peace in the Middle East 🙄

[Gassy]

Oct 10, 2023 8:50:35 GMT gulfofaden said:

Oct 10, 2023 8:24:34 GMT Gassy said:

Quite unbelievable someone can actually think the above tbh. It would be nice to see the right accept blame for something rather than always passing the buck

For goodness sake take your medicine.

It's going to take a lot more than medicine to agree with what you're saying  

[gulfofaden]

It is pretty rich ascribing a slew of events leading to an unstable world to the actions of the previous incumbent.

The NATO comment is complete double-think given what’s happened in Ukraine. Clearly, green lights were given to advance the Ukraine ascension into NATO. Which is where the invasion came from.

Whatever the weather, with Biden came 2 major wars, a botched withdrawal arming an enemy with billions of dollars of equipment. You can fool yourself into thinking these stem from DT and not a direct consequence of Biden’s presidency if you like, but it’s just intense partisanship if you ask me. Someone clearly has been at work spinning webs of logic if you genuinely believe that these are the echos of the Trump presidency. They’re more the echos of the Bush presidency if you want a republican to blame.

[yattongas]

Oct 10, 2023 10:04:30 GMT gulfofaden said:

It is pretty rich ascribing a slew of events leading to an unstable world to the actions of the previous incumbent.

The NATO comment is complete double-think given what’s happened in Ukraine. Clearly, green lights were given to advance the Ukraine ascension into NATO. Which is where the invasion came from.

Whatever the weather, with Biden came 2 major wars, a botched withdrawal arming an enemy with billions of dollars of equipment. You can fool yourself into thinking these stem from DT and not a direct consequence of Biden’s presidency if you like, but it’s just intense partisanship if you ask me. Someone clearly has been at work spinning webs of logic if you genuinely believe that these are the echos of the Trump presidency. They’re more the echos of the Bush presidency if you want a republican to blame.

Happy to be corrected but didn’t the Biden administration just follow Trump withdrawal plan ? Granted it should have been handled much better .

[stuart1974]

Oct 10, 2023 10:04:30 GMT gulfofaden said:

It is pretty rich ascribing a slew of events leading to an unstable world to the actions of the previous incumbent.

The NATO comment is complete double-think given what’s happened in Ukraine. Clearly, green lights were given to advance the Ukraine ascension into NATO. Which is where the invasion came from.

Whatever the weather, with Biden came 2 major wars, a botched withdrawal arming an enemy with billions of dollars of equipment. You can fool yourself into thinking these stem from DT and not a direct consequence of Biden’s presidency if you like, but it’s just intense partisanship if you ask me. Someone clearly has been at work spinning webs of logic if you genuinely believe that these are the echos of the Trump presidency. They’re more the echos of the Bush presidency if you want a republican to blame.

Ukraine was never going to join Nato, it couldn't.

[stuart1974]

Oct 10, 2023 10:35:41 GMT yattongas said:

Oct 10, 2023 10:04:30 GMT gulfofaden said:

It is pretty rich ascribing a slew of events leading to an unstable world to the actions of the previous incumbent.

The NATO comment is complete double-think given what’s happened in Ukraine. Clearly, green lights were given to advance the Ukraine ascension into NATO. Which is where the invasion came from.

Whatever the weather, with Biden came 2 major wars, a botched withdrawal arming an enemy with billions of dollars of equipment. You can fool yourself into thinking these stem from DT and not a direct consequence of Biden’s presidency if you like, but it’s just intense partisanship if you ask me. Someone clearly has been at work spinning webs of logic if you genuinely believe that these are the echos of the Trump presidency. They’re more the echos of the Bush presidency if you want a republican to blame.

Happy to be corrected but didn’t the Biden administration just follow Trump withdrawal plan ? Granted it should have been handled much better .

Yep. We and a few others wanted to retain a training mission but the US said no. Biden followed Trump's plan but he also failed to mitigate it so I also blame him for the handling.

Without US involvement, the Afghan leaders fled leaving the Taliban to take over.

[wertongas]

Oct 10, 2023 9:03:11 GMT oldie said:

Oct 9, 2023 22:49:23 GMT wertongas said:

Judah and Isarel existed long before Palistine, it was formed before the Roman Empire , unfortunatly most seem to think this is a recent conflict and don't learn their history. 
Isarel has a right to have its own lands back, there are plenty of large Arab countries that could accomodate a small Palastinian state.

On that basis the Picts should be given the UK.
Your proposition is ridiculous.

We can only talk of the modern age, ie post 1850.

Oldie the average DNA of an English person is 60% anglo celtic (British Irish) the rest being made up from the Viking countries and a bit of Gernman/ French , so yes when the Romans left  Britain we did revert back to a celtic nation. The difference between Britain and Isarel is that we managed to keep out most invaders except the Normans who were part English anyway and the Vikings. Where as Isarel not being an island didn't that does not mean to say Jewish people do not deserve to have their old lands back, like we have kept ours. 
You need to get your facts right mate. Why do you think the Jews re- settled where they did, it is there land long before anyone else, right back to the stone age . British, Arab and French occupation have been blips in their long history. 

[oldie]

Oct 10, 2023 11:45:43 GMT wertongas said:

Oct 10, 2023 9:03:11 GMT oldie said:

On that basis the Picts should be given the UK.
Your proposition is ridiculous.

We can only talk of the modern age, ie post 1850.

Oldie the average DNA of an English person is 60% anglo celtic (British Irish) the rest being made up from the Viking countries and a bit of Gernman/ French , so yes when the Romans left  Britain we did revert back to a celtic nation. The difference between Britain and Isarel is that we managed to keep out most invaders except the Normans who were part English anyway and the Vikings. Where as Isarel not being an island didn't that does not mean to say Jewish people do not deserve to have their old lands back, like we have kept ours. 
You need to get your facts right mate. Why do you think the Jews re- settled where they did, it is there land long before anyone else, right back to the stone age . British, Arab and French occupation have been blips in their long history. 

You missed the bit about the Anglo Saxon invasion of the fifth century. But heh what's in a name and a few centuries.

As for getting my facts right (mate😂)
Why do you believe that Arabs from that area are not Semites?

To quote

"Ignorance. There have been many Semitic peoples in the world—not just Arabs and Jews, but also Samaritans (still around), Phoenicians (and their Carthaginian descendents), Assyrians, Babylonians, Canaanites, etc. etc. etc. The most visible Semitic peoples today are Jews and Arabs"

The people from that area now defined as Palestine were the same people, whether we define them now as Jews or Arabs.

Just for you

"The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences."

I suspect you know nothing of which you speak.

On the inclusion of term "Iranians" I was surprised at that as it is a bit lazy (given my limited exposure to that). But when you consider the various people who occupied the area we now call Iran in periods that pre dated the Romans and the extent of the land they controlled perhaps not. I do know (for a fact) that Iranians (Persians) recoil in horror if you should dare define them as Arabs who they look down upon and consider the imposition of Islam as an invasion (it was).

As always the smoke of religion has a lot to answer for.

[DrFaustus]

Oct 10, 2023 5:50:52 GMT trevorgas said:

Oct 9, 2023 21:53:12 GMT DrFaustus said:

If Hamas and their other fascist co-conspirators didn't attack Israeli women, children and old folk, Israel wouldn't retaliate.

Surely Israel has the right to defend itself?

I'm not questioning the right of any Country to defend itself,more exploring whether it's ok morally to knowingly kill women and children.

If Hamas stopped doing it deliberately, Israel would retaliation.

[trevorgas]

Oct 10, 2023 21:03:26 GMT DrFaustus said:

Oct 10, 2023 5:50:52 GMT trevorgas said:

I'm not questioning the right of any Country to defend itself,more exploring whether it's ok morally to knowingly kill women and children.

If Hamas stopped doing it deliberately, Israel would retaliation.

Ah two wrongs make a right