Israel

[DrFaustus]

250 bodies found at the site of a music festival attacked by the "freedom fighters" of Hamas and they wonder why Israel retaliates?

Savage, backward, evil shits and "friends" of Corbyn.

[oldie]

Oct 8, 2023 22:05:55 GMT DrFaustus said:

250 bodies found at the site of a music festival attacked by the "freedom fighters" of Hamas and they wonder why Israel retaliates?

Savage, backward, evil shits and "friends" of Corbyn.

Just for a bit of balance and background

"More than 200 Palestinians and nearly 30 Israelis have been killed so far this year in the occupied West Bank and Israel – a level of violence surpassing last year’s entire death toll and the highest number of fatalities since 2005, the United Nations Middle East envoy has said."

"Tor Wennesland, UN special coordinator for the Middle East peace process, told the UN Security Council on Monday that escalating violence is being fuelled by growing despair about the future among Palestinians and a lack of progress towards achieving an independent state."

And this, which rarely gets reported

*He pointed to the unabated expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, Israel’s demolition of Palestinian homes, operations by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank areas under Palestinian administrative and police control, and attacks by Israeli settlers on Palestinian villages."

That was taken from a UN report of August this year

[francegas]

Oct 8, 2023 20:36:16 GMT oldie said:

Oct 8, 2023 16:27:41 GMT francegas said:

I don't think Iran would hesitate in getting into open conflict with Israel. Isn't their ultimate goal to wipe Israel off the face of the world along with most of the countries that border Israel.

You mean they want to eliminate their allies Hezbollah in Lebanon...strange tactics if so. Is that a Tory thing?

No I meant the countries bordering Israel have the same aim as Iran. Was that too difficult to understand or is that just a leftie thing.

[gashead79]

Oct 8, 2023 20:56:19 GMT oldie said:

Oct 8, 2023 17:54:12 GMT gashead79 said:

You have made some thought provoking points here. I understand your view of my posts and agree, mainly because I use this forum in that way rather than getting into the weeds of a particular topic.
We will disagree on things, example being the covid example you have just stated-which to me is absolutely ridiculous.
As usual you have taken an opportunity to go off on a tangent which is fine, I can see you want to speak on things that you are comfortable with. Wrt playing the cynic card, yes that is a result of living in reality rather than some idealistic dreamland that people float around in.
Holding our policy makers to account sounds great, but we are in a place where that counts for nothing in the grand scheme so you may aswell look after your own nest-imo.

Being honest, what you have written there regarding your grand children makes me feel pretty sad.

I would challenge you on my desire to speak on things that I am "comfortable" with. I will happily debate just about any topic. Whilst not playing the cynic card in an attempt to shut down conversation.
No need to feel sad for the grandkids, they will probably never be aware of the decision made. At the same time their childhood and development will not be blighted by cynicism imposed by their parents.

Something that makes me feel proud and not sad.

Well, you've manged to turn the topic of Israel and Palestine into some cock waving show on how proud you are of your offspring. Returning to the covid vaccine seamlessly aswell, because no doubt you feel rattled from our lengthy discussions in the past. Then, you couldn't debate properly at all and resorted to name calling and the usual patronising waffle that you are very good at.

Israel and Palestine will rumble on until your grandchildrens grandchildren have passed away. If that's cynical in your eyes then so be it. I'd call it real.

Plus if the family need discussions on things they are "torn" between, there's a fair chance that any decision made could come back to bite. Hopefully it pays off as I know that decent parents will always look to make correct decisions in the interests of their children, even if that looks odd from outside.

[oldie]

Oct 9, 2023 6:01:36 GMT francegas said:

Oct 8, 2023 20:36:16 GMT oldie said:

You mean they want to eliminate their allies Hezbollah in Lebanon...strange tactics if so. Is that a Tory thing?

No I meant the countries bordering Israel have the same aim as Iran. Was that too difficult to understand or is that just a leftie thing.

🤔😜
Is that true?

[oldie]

Oct 9, 2023 6:50:02 GMT gashead79 said:

Oct 8, 2023 20:56:19 GMT oldie said:

I would challenge you on my desire to speak on things that I am "comfortable" with. I will happily debate just about any topic. Whilst not playing the cynic card in an attempt to shut down conversation.
No need to feel sad for the grandkids, they will probably never be aware of the decision made. At the same time their childhood and development will not be blighted by cynicism imposed by their parents.

Something that makes me feel proud and not sad.

Well, you've manged to turn the topic of Israel and Palestine into some cock waving show on how proud you are of your offspring. Returning to the covid vaccine seamlessly aswell, because no doubt you feel rattled from our lengthy discussions in the past. Then, you couldn't debate properly at all and resorted to name calling and the usual patronising waffle that you are very good at.

Israel and Palestine will rumble on until your grandchildrens grandchildren have passed away. If that's cynical in your eyes then so be it. I'd call it real.

Plus if the family need discussions on things they are "torn" between, there's a fair chance that any decision made could come back to bite. Hopefully it pays off as I know that decent parents will always look to make correct decisions in the interests of their children, even if that looks odd from outside.

Always that risk when trying to understand the reasoning behind people's expressed opinions.

So back to the core topic of this thread.

[stuart1974]

I see Israel are calling up 300,000 reservists and are likely to retaliate en masse, while there are reports that Hamas are going all ISIS with their actions (no, I've no intention of verifying that).

Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the cusp of a peace deal.

I wonder, given the timing and degree of atrocities going on, that Hamas aren't trying to elicit a massive reaction from Israel and scupper the Saudi peace deal.

David Lammy at Conference today completely sided with Israel.

[oldie]

Oct 9, 2023 11:00:51 GMT stuart1974 said:

I see Israel are calling up 300,000 reservists and are likely to retaliate en masse, while there are reports that Hamas are going all ISIS with their actions (no, I've no intention of verifying that).

Israel and Saudi Arabia were on the cusp of a peace deal.

I wonder, given the timing and degree of atrocities going on, that Hamas aren't trying to elicit a massive reaction from Israel and scupper the Saudi peace deal.

David Lammy at Conference today completely sided with Israel.

I guess we can only hope that out of this disaster something constructive may happen. I very much doubt it.

[DrFaustus]

Oct 9, 2023 4:52:46 GMT oldie said:

Oct 8, 2023 22:05:55 GMT DrFaustus said:

250 bodies found at the site of a music festival attacked by the "freedom fighters" of Hamas and they wonder why Israel retaliates?

Savage, backward, evil shits and "friends" of Corbyn.

Just for a bit of balance and background

"More than 200 Palestinians and nearly 30 Israelis have been killed so far this year in the occupied West Bank and Israel – a level of violence surpassing last year’s entire death toll and the highest number of fatalities since 2005, the United Nations Middle East envoy has said."

"Tor Wennesland, UN special coordinator for the Middle East peace process, told the UN Security Council on Monday that escalating violence is being fuelled by growing despair about the future among Palestinians and a lack of progress towards achieving an independent state."

And this, which rarely gets reported

*He pointed to the unabated expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, Israel’s demolition of Palestinian homes, operations by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank areas under Palestinian administrative and police control, and attacks by Israeli settlers on Palestinian villages."

That was taken from a UN report of August this year

That's not balance.

The vile thugs of Hamas routinely target Israeli citizens, including those poor souls enjoying a music festival. Israel never has or will do such things.

[oldie]

Oct 9, 2023 14:49:55 GMT DrFaustus said:

Oct 9, 2023 4:52:46 GMT oldie said:

Just for a bit of balance and background

"More than 200 Palestinians and nearly 30 Israelis have been killed so far this year in the occupied West Bank and Israel – a level of violence surpassing last year’s entire death toll and the highest number of fatalities since 2005, the United Nations Middle East envoy has said."

"Tor Wennesland, UN special coordinator for the Middle East peace process, told the UN Security Council on Monday that escalating violence is being fuelled by growing despair about the future among Palestinians and a lack of progress towards achieving an independent state."

And this, which rarely gets reported

*He pointed to the unabated expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, Israel’s demolition of Palestinian homes, operations by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank areas under Palestinian administrative and police control, and attacks by Israeli settlers on Palestinian villages."

That was taken from a UN report of August this year

That's not balance.

The vile thugs of Hamas routinely target Israeli citizens, including those poor souls enjoying a music festival. Israel never has or will do such things.

Not as a one off comparison it's not I agree. But years of grinding apartheid, new and illegal settlements , attacks by Zionist fundamentalists etc...you can understand the sense of hopelessness by Palestinian young.

No excuse for the horrific attack on the weekend but it didn't evolve out of thin air.

[baggins]

Oct 9, 2023 14:49:55 GMT DrFaustus said:

Oct 9, 2023 4:52:46 GMT oldie said:

Just for a bit of balance and background

"More than 200 Palestinians and nearly 30 Israelis have been killed so far this year in the occupied West Bank and Israel – a level of violence surpassing last year’s entire death toll and the highest number of fatalities since 2005, the United Nations Middle East envoy has said."

"Tor Wennesland, UN special coordinator for the Middle East peace process, told the UN Security Council on Monday that escalating violence is being fuelled by growing despair about the future among Palestinians and a lack of progress towards achieving an independent state."

And this, which rarely gets reported

*He pointed to the unabated expansion of illegal Israeli settlements, Israel’s demolition of Palestinian homes, operations by Israeli forces in the occupied West Bank areas under Palestinian administrative and police control, and attacks by Israeli settlers on Palestinian villages."

That was taken from a UN report of August this year

That's not balance.

The vile thugs of Hamas routinely target Israeli citizens, including those poor souls enjoying a music festival. Israel never has or will do such things.

I'm not overly up to date with all of this, but hasn't Israel carried out it's fair share of shelling and missile strikes on Gaza? Hitting schools, hospitals etc?

[oldie]

Oct 9, 2023 18:00:52 GMT baggins said:

Oct 9, 2023 14:49:55 GMT DrFaustus said:

That's not balance.

The vile thugs of Hamas routinely target Israeli citizens, including those poor souls enjoying a music festival. Israel never has or will do such things.

I'm not overly up to date with all of this, but hasn't Israel carried out it's fair share of shelling and missile strikes on Gaza? Hitting schools, hospitals etc?

It goes way back Baggins.
Started with the Balfour Declaration in 1917. Followed by the carve up of Mesopotamia by us and the French.

Homelands of the locals? Pffft...

[DrFaustus]

Oct 9, 2023 18:00:52 GMT baggins said:

Oct 9, 2023 14:49:55 GMT DrFaustus said:

That's not balance.

The vile thugs of Hamas routinely target Israeli citizens, including those poor souls enjoying a music festival. Israel never has or will do such things.

I'm not overly up to date with all of this, but hasn't Israel carried out it's fair share of shelling and missile strikes on Gaza? Hitting schools, hospitals etc?

In response to Hamas and other neo Nazis who attack Israel first.

Again my friend...22 Arab nations plus Iran in the middle East and North Africa. Many of them still profess a desire to wipe out Judaism and Israel, much like those charmers from Germany in the 20s to 40s.

One democracy in the middle of them all, the size of Wales,that before it became Israel was a wasteland with no infrastructure, safe water, agriculture, or industry...yet somehow Israel is the aggressor? Pah.


Never again.

[trevorgas]

Oct 9, 2023 21:43:56 GMT DrFaustus said:

Oct 9, 2023 18:00:52 GMT baggins said:

I'm not overly up to date with all of this, but hasn't Israel carried out it's fair share of shelling and missile strikes on Gaza? Hitting schools, hospitals etc?

In response to Hamas and other neo Nazis who attack Israel first.

Again my friend...22 Arab nations plus Iran in the middle East and North Africa. Many of them still profess a desire to wipe out Judaism and Israel, much like those charmers from Germany in the 20s to 40s.

One democracy in the middle of them all, the size of Wales,that before it became Israel was a wasteland with no infrastructure, safe water, agriculture, or industry...yet somehow Israel is the aggressor? Pah.


Never again.

I fully understand your points however,do you believe it is acceptable to treat women and children as just unfortunate collateral damage by imposing a total blockade?

[DrFaustus]

Oct 9, 2023 21:48:54 GMT trevorgas said:

Oct 9, 2023 21:43:56 GMT DrFaustus said:

In response to Hamas and other neo Nazis who attack Israel first.

Again my friend...22 Arab nations plus Iran in the middle East and North Africa. Many of them still profess a desire to wipe out Judaism and Israel, much like those charmers from Germany in the 20s to 40s.

One democracy in the middle of them all, the size of Wales,that before it became Israel was a wasteland with no infrastructure, safe water, agriculture, or industry...yet somehow Israel is the aggressor? Pah.


Never again.

I fully understand your points however,do you believe it is acceptable to treat women and children as just unfortunate collateral damage by imposing a total blockade?

If Hamas and their other fascist co-conspirators didn't attack Israeli women, children and old folk, Israel wouldn't retaliate.

Surely Israel has the right to defend itself?

[wertongas]

Oct 9, 2023 18:35:26 GMT oldie said:

Oct 9, 2023 18:00:52 GMT baggins said:

I'm not overly up to date with all of this, but hasn't Israel carried out it's fair share of shelling and missile strikes on Gaza? Hitting schools, hospitals etc?

It goes way back Baggins.
Started with the Balfour Declaration in 1917. Followed by the carve up of Mesopotamia by us and the French.

Homelands of the locals? Pffft...

Judah and Isarel existed long before Palistine, it was formed before the Roman Empire , unfortunatly most seem to think this is a recent conflict and don't learn their history. 
Isarel has a right to have its own lands back, there are plenty of large Arab countries that could accomodate a small Palastinian state.

[stuart1974]

Oct 8, 2023 17:08:10 GMT trevorgas said:

Oct 8, 2023 16:34:50 GMT stuart1974 said:

Would be surprised to see any direct action between Israel and Iran, it'll stay between proxies imo.

Where there may be conflict is if Iran tries to disrupt shipping in the Strait of Hormuz, we can expect an increase in naval deployments to escort shipping.

On a more selfish note, may be worth fixing fuel tariff.

Go on I will pose the question,the creation of the Israeli State in 1947 meant the destruction of Palestine,in hindsight was that right?.

It wasn’t the original plan, we intended to have one country with autonomous regions. The idea was that neither Jew nor Arab would dominate the other. There were also limits on immigration, 15,000 a year iirc.

The Second World War changed that ideal, much of which was forced upon us by circumstances.

[trevorgas]

Oct 9, 2023 21:53:12 GMT DrFaustus said:

Oct 9, 2023 21:48:54 GMT trevorgas said:

I fully understand your points however,do you believe it is acceptable to treat women and children as just unfortunate collateral damage by imposing a total blockade?

If Hamas and their other fascist co-conspirators didn't attack Israeli women, children and old folk, Israel wouldn't retaliate.

Surely Israel has the right to defend itself?

I'm not questioning the right of any Country to defend itself,more exploring whether it's ok morally to knowingly kill women and children.

[trevorgas]

Oct 9, 2023 23:13:13 GMT stuart1974 said:

Oct 8, 2023 17:08:10 GMT trevorgas said:

Go on I will pose the question,the creation of the Israeli State in 1947 meant the destruction of Palestine,in hindsight was that right?.

It wasn’t the original plan, we intended to have one country with autonomous regions. The idea was that neither Jew nor Arab would dominate the other. There were also limits on immigration, 15,000 a year iirc.

The Second World War changed that ideal, much of which was forced upon us by circumstances.

Thanks Stuart,the UN recognition was instrumental in creating the mess we now have,with hindsight was that right?

[stuart1974]

Oct 10, 2023 5:54:34 GMT trevorgas said:

Oct 9, 2023 23:13:13 GMT stuart1974 said:

It wasn’t the original plan, we intended to have one country with autonomous regions. The idea was that neither Jew nor Arab would dominate the other. There were also limits on immigration, 15,000 a year iirc.

The Second World War changed that ideal, much of which was forced upon us by circumstances.

Thanks Stuart,the UN recognition was instrumental in creating the mess we now have,with hindsight was that right?

Don't think there was much that could be done, the die was cast long before.

The whole sorry saga goes back to Anglo-French rivalries, in fact Sykes-Picot was in many ways an attempt to keep the Entante Cordiale together in the dark days of the First World War. The Balfour Declaration was a further attempt to garner influence, we looked to keep Jews onside in Palestine while the French backed Christians in their area of Lebanon and Syria. Both did so for political rather than idealistic reasons.

Even during the Second World War, de Gaulle kept up support for those fighting British rule and while we eventually 'ousted' French influence from Syria and Lebanon, through this French support in the 20s, 30s and 40s, it led to the formation of many of the insurgency groups that we ended up fighting during the Mandate period such as Irgun and the Stern Gang. The modern day Likud party is the grandchild of Irgun.

It also shaped de Gaulle's view of us and according to James Barr's 'A line in the sand' it caused him to reject our admission to "his club" in the 1950s and 60s as we couldn't be trusted by him.

The period between 1917 and 1948 was full of double standards, betrayal, idealism, side deals, swapping sides and more.

I certainly recommend Barr's book.

The Second World War meant that arms became more readily available, experienced soldiers swelled the ranks and the limits on immigration and also other restrictions like buying property caused further resentment.

Eventually we said we aren't doing this any more. The original British plan was one nation with autonomous regions but that was leaked and died quickly. The UN plan was for a qualified partition retaining certain links but that was rejected, later seen by many as a mistake, including Mahmood Abbas.

When we left it caused a power vacuum which the Israelis filled and Trueman then recognised it as a legitimate government.

I don't think any single event is the cause or any party comes out of this well, and its not just those mentioned as others also had an influence in one way or another.

However, whilst how we got here is interesting and in parts, useful, it doesn't justify, or in my view even mitigate, what has happened here. Israel has been attacked by terrorists and has the right to defend itself. I do hope that (a) Israel shows some restaint and doesn't become what it is fighting, and (b) people don't associate Hamas with the wider Palestinian cause. Those scenes on the streets of London are disheartening and certain Labour politicians should hold their counsil.

Israel needs to use this to target the Hamas leadership and get the peace process back on track.