Israel

[stuart1974]

Oct 8, 2023 9:41:17 GMT gashead79 said:

Oct 8, 2023 9:10:39 GMT stuart1974 said:

There was a decent peace plan in the 1990s but that fell. Whilst Trump did propose a new one it was very one sided and could almost be written by Likud itself. Indeed it was drafted by his son in law iirc.

Trump's foreign policy was pure showmanship with North Korea and getting out of Afghanistan by nievely believing the Taliban. Moving the embassy to Jerusalem was seen as inflammatory.

Any plan drawn up will be criticised by some. This has been ongoing for decades and won't stop...Well they might chill but the tension will remain.

This one was particularly one-sided, though.

[gashead79]

Oct 8, 2023 9:45:17 GMT stuart1974 said:

Oct 8, 2023 9:41:17 GMT gashead79 said:

Any plan drawn up will be criticised by some. This has been ongoing for decades and won't stop...Well they might chill but the tension will remain.

This one was particularly one-sided, though.

There would have been benefit to the US and its allies no doubt. I doubt the Israelis thought it was one sided either. That view comes from a particular side right.

[oldie]

Oct 8, 2023 9:30:56 GMT gashead79 said:

Oct 8, 2023 9:15:03 GMT oldie said:

That's a hell of a negative attitude and vision to hand down to your children and grandchildren.

Indeed it is.
The alternative is what? To dream about world peace.🤨

Please don't concern yourself with my children and their upbringing. We are fine thank you.

The hypocrisy will reign supreme here too. Many of the peace activists and concerned onlookers are financially tied to conflict. Probably most of the posters on this chat too. Awkward eh!

Well
You might have a starting point of not considering people like Trump as viable political figures.
In terms of being financially tied to conflict, I am presuming you the dominant position of the weapons industry in our manufacturing economy.

Most might choose not to be but are unprepared for the hit to our economy if we pulled back.
What sickens me most is the propaganda behind "defence of the realm" that gets touted every time anyone dares raise this.

Selling to "client states" is fundamental to that industry.
And, we are not fussy.

The shareholder return on sales to Saudi Arabia which are then used to kill civilians in Yemen is pretty good I hear.

In the meantime the USA spends $3.8 billion annually funding Israel. Annually. Imagine how many schools, hospitals and infrastructure that would build in Gaza. The USA spends about $150M pa currently supporting the Palestinians, a number that has been guaranteed by the Biden Administration.

No supporter of violence I, but I can completely understand the frustrations of the Palestinians who operate in what is essentially an apartheid state, hugely funded by the West.

[stuart1974]

Oct 8, 2023 9:52:25 GMT gashead79 said:

Oct 8, 2023 9:45:17 GMT stuart1974 said:

This one was particularly one-sided, though.

There would have been benefit to the US and its allies no doubt. I doubt the Israelis thought it was one sided either. That view comes from a particular side right.

I've no particular axe to grind either way, as far as I can see there are faults on both sides and several external influences who should become a little more detached.

[yattongas]

Oct 8, 2023 9:44:37 GMT gashead79 said:

Oct 8, 2023 9:35:58 GMT yattongas said:

You don’t half speak some bollox 🙄

Which part?
I thought you'd left the convo anyway?
We can't agree Yatton but try not to be rude if you can.

You post rubbish like this just for the windup , then when you get called out for spouting made up rubbish you feign offence . 

“The hypocrisy will reign supreme here too. Many of the peace activists and concerned onlookers are financially tied to conflict. Probably most of the posters on this chat too. Awkward eh!”

[gashead79]

Oct 8, 2023 10:02:36 GMT oldie said:

Oct 8, 2023 9:30:56 GMT gashead79 said:

Indeed it is.
The alternative is what? To dream about world peace.🤨

Please don't concern yourself with my children and their upbringing. We are fine thank you.

The hypocrisy will reign supreme here too. Many of the peace activists and concerned onlookers are financially tied to conflict. Probably most of the posters on this chat too. Awkward eh!

Well
You might have a starting point of not considering people like Trump as viable political figures.
In terms of being financially tied to conflict, I am presuming you the dominant position of the weapons industry in our manufacturing economy.

Most might choose not to be but are unprepared for the hit to our economy if we pulled back.
What sickens me most is the propaganda behind "defence of the realm" that gets touted every time anyone dares raise this.

Selling to "client states" is fundamental to that industry.
And, we are not fussy.

The shareholder return on sales to Saudi Arabia which are then used to kill civilians in Yemen is pretty good I hear.

In the meantime the USA spends $3.8 billion annually funding Israel. Annually. Imagine how many schools, hospitals and infrastructure that would build in Gaza. The USA spends about $150M pa currently supporting the Palestinians, a number that has been guaranteed by the Biden Administration.

No supporter of violence I, but I can completely understand the frustrations of the Palestinians who operate in what is essentially an apartheid state, hugely funded by the West.

Can't argue with this. As you've pointed out, often the manufacturers and interested parties will have a hand in both sides.

[gashead79]

Oct 8, 2023 10:58:14 GMT yattongas said:

Oct 8, 2023 9:44:37 GMT gashead79 said:

Which part?
I thought you'd left the convo anyway?
We can't agree Yatton but try not to be rude if you can.

You post rubbish like this just for the windup , then when you get called out for spouting made up rubbish you feign offence . 

“The hypocrisy will reign supreme here too. Many of the peace activists and concerned onlookers are financially tied to conflict. Probably most of the posters on this chat too. Awkward eh!”

Call me out by all means, its a chat board.
I'm not offended at all, just letting you know that you are rude🤷‍♂️
My post will wind people like you up because you either know its true and are snookered, or didn't realise and now feel violated! Lol.

[yattongas]

Oct 8, 2023 11:37:50 GMT gashead79 said:

Oct 8, 2023 10:58:14 GMT yattongas said:

You post rubbish like this just for the windup , then when you get called out for spouting made up rubbish you feign offence . 

“The hypocrisy will reign supreme here too. Many of the peace activists and concerned onlookers are financially tied to conflict. Probably most of the posters on this chat too. Awkward eh!”

Call me out by all means, its a chat board.
I'm not offended at all, just letting you know that you are rude🤷‍♂️
My post will wind people like you up because you either know its true and are snookered, or didn't realise and now feel violated! Lol.

If you think 🙄
Ive not once ever said anything in support of either side. 

[oldie]

Oct 8, 2023 11:33:59 GMT gashead79 said:

Oct 8, 2023 10:02:36 GMT oldie said:

Well
You might have a starting point of not considering people like Trump as viable political figures.
In terms of being financially tied to conflict, I am presuming you the dominant position of the weapons industry in our manufacturing economy.

Most might choose not to be but are unprepared for the hit to our economy if we pulled back.
What sickens me most is the propaganda behind "defence of the realm" that gets touted every time anyone dares raise this.

Selling to "client states" is fundamental to that industry.
And, we are not fussy.

The shareholder return on sales to Saudi Arabia which are then used to kill civilians in Yemen is pretty good I hear.

In the meantime the USA spends $3.8 billion annually funding Israel. Annually. Imagine how many schools, hospitals and infrastructure that would build in Gaza. The USA spends about $150M pa currently supporting the Palestinians, a number that has been guaranteed by the Biden Administration.

No supporter of violence I, but I can completely understand the frustrations of the Palestinians who operate in what is essentially an apartheid state, hugely funded by the West.

Can't argue with this. As you've pointed out, often the manufacturers and interested parties will have a hand in both sides.

Ok
Then surely we, as members of our democracy (so called), have a duty to hold our politicians, policy makers, to account?
Playing the ultra cynic card renders that possibility (however slim) impossible. Correct me if my impression of you is incorrect but you play the cynic card constantly across a range of topics.

With regard to offspring I have two adult sons and five grandchildren. Believe it or not we discuss such matters often and the potential impact on the grandchildren. (Ages 5 to 23)
The older ones are engaged as a result (I believe)

Just recently the parents of the 5 year old twins had a decision re COVID vaccines. Having been granted green cards in the USA the question of the children arose. They would gain automatic status due to their parents until the age of 18, at which time they would lose it. Or, get a COVID booster now and be granted the green card now which is a lifetime privilege. Torn between taking a wholly unnecessary vaccine (at their age) we discussed it at length. They chose to guarantee the legal status over the miniscule risk associated with vaccine.

These are real time issues which if we were a family of cynics rather than logic the grandkids would have had a degree of uncertainty embedded in their lives.

I am not, absolutely not, raising this example to challenge you on that point. But more to challenge the cynical "stand offish" quips that you make more generally.
In summary you state, in short sentences, your opinion but never explain why.
Not that you have to of course.

[yattongas]

Isreal officially declares war . There’s going to be a massacre isn’t there ?

[oldie]

Oct 8, 2023 15:00:08 GMT yattongas said:

Isreal officially declares war . There’s going to be a massacre isn’t there ?

My personal fear is that the forces of Hezbollah become involved which has the potential of dragging Iran into open conflict with Israel.
America would not let Israel fall which means fighting Iran.
The potential loss of life is frightening.

The Straits of Hormuz would be closed and oil exports from Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi threatened.

The world economy would tank in a hurry. Forget HS2 arguments, think food on the table.

[francegas]

Oct 8, 2023 15:42:27 GMT oldie said:

Oct 8, 2023 15:00:08 GMT yattongas said:

Isreal officially declares war . There’s going to be a massacre isn’t there ?

My personal fear is that the forces of Hezbollah become involved which has the potential of dragging Iran into open conflict with Israel.
America would not let Israel fall which means fighting Iran.
The potential loss of life is frightening.

The Straits of Hormuz would be closed and oil exports from Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi threatened.

The world economy would tank in a hurry. Forget HS2 arguments, think food on the table.

I don't think Iran would hesitate in getting into open conflict with Israel. Isn't their ultimate goal to wipe Israel off the face of the world along with most of the countries that border Israel.

[stuart1974]

Oct 8, 2023 15:42:27 GMT oldie said:

Oct 8, 2023 15:00:08 GMT yattongas said:

Isreal officially declares war . There’s going to be a massacre isn’t there ?

My personal fear is that the forces of Hezbollah become involved which has the potential of dragging Iran into open conflict with Israel.
America would not let Israel fall which means fighting Iran.
The potential loss of life is frightening.

The Straits of Hormuz would be closed and oil exports from Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi threatened.

The world economy would tank in a hurry. Forget HS2 arguments, think food on the table.

Would be surprised to see any direct action between Israel and Iran, it'll stay between proxies imo.

Where there may be conflict is if Iran tries to disrupt shipping in the Strait of Hormuz, we can expect an increase in naval deployments to escort shipping.

On a more selfish note, may be worth fixing fuel tariff.

[trevorgas]

Oct 8, 2023 9:17:00 GMT stuart1974 said:

Oct 8, 2023 8:26:54 GMT trevorgas said:

He will,siding with Putin and withdrawing US aid,that will well and truly f..k Ukraine and give Putin a starting pistol for a potential incursion into Poland etc ,to restore " Greater Russia".

Iran supports both Hamas and Russia so there will be inevitable cross overs, just look at how the Merkava was disabled with a drone dropping munitions on to the turret.

Yep agreed Stuart it's interesting how during the Ukrainian conflict hand controlled small drones are now a very effective weapon,as they say War is the mother of invention.

[trevorgas]

Oct 8, 2023 16:34:50 GMT stuart1974 said:

Oct 8, 2023 15:42:27 GMT oldie said:

My personal fear is that the forces of Hezbollah become involved which has the potential of dragging Iran into open conflict with Israel.
America would not let Israel fall which means fighting Iran.
The potential loss of life is frightening.

The Straits of Hormuz would be closed and oil exports from Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi threatened.

The world economy would tank in a hurry. Forget HS2 arguments, think food on the table.

Would be surprised to see any direct action between Israel and Iran, it'll stay between proxies imo.

Where there may be conflict is if Iran tries to disrupt shipping in the Strait of Hormuz, we can expect an increase in naval deployments to escort shipping.

On a more selfish note, may be worth fixing fuel tariff.

Go on I will pose the question,the creation of the Israeli State in 1947 meant the destruction of Palestine,in hindsight was that right?.

[DrFaustus]

Having lived in Israel many years ago for some time, their eternal struggle to live without some fascist nutters trying to destroy them, is distressing. People say they (Israel) are oppressive towards Palestinian Arabs and others, but the IDF only ever retaliate to attempts to hurt Israel.

22 Arab countries in the Middle East (plus Iran - non Arab), many of who are still "at war" with Israel and sworn to its destruction. One democracy.

f**k the fascists of Hamas (Corbyn's "friends"), ISIS, Hezbollah and any other fundamentalist lunatics.

[gashead79]

Oct 8, 2023 12:11:48 GMT oldie said:

Oct 8, 2023 11:33:59 GMT gashead79 said:

Can't argue with this. As you've pointed out, often the manufacturers and interested parties will have a hand in both sides.

Ok
Then surely we, as members of our democracy (so called), have a duty to hold our politicians, policy makers, to account?
Playing the ultra cynic card renders that possibility (however slim) impossible. Correct me if my impression of you is incorrect but you play the cynic card constantly across a range of topics.

With regard to offspring I have two adult sons and five grandchildren. Believe it or not we discuss such matters often and the potential impact on the grandchildren. (Ages 5 to 23)
The older ones are engaged as a result (I believe)

Just recently the parents of the 5 year old twins had a decision re COVID vaccines. Having been granted green cards in the USA the question of the children arose. They would gain automatic status due to their parents until the age of 18, at which time they would lose it. Or, get a COVID booster now and be granted the green card now which is a lifetime privilege. Torn between taking a wholly unnecessary vaccine (at their age) we discussed it at length. They chose to guarantee the legal status over the miniscule risk associated with vaccine.

These are real time issues which if we were a family of cynics rather than logic the grandkids would have had a degree of uncertainty embedded in their lives.

I am not, absolutely not, raising this example to challenge you on that point. But more to challenge the cynical "stand offish" quips that you make more generally.
In summary you state, in short sentences, your opinion but never explain why.
Not that you have to of course.

You have made some thought provoking points here. I understand your view of my posts and agree, mainly because I use this forum in that way rather than getting into the weeds of a particular topic.
We will disagree on things, example being the covid example you have just stated-which to me is absolutely ridiculous.
As usual you have taken an opportunity to go off on a tangent which is fine, I can see you want to speak on things that you are comfortable with. Wrt playing the cynic card, yes that is a result of living in reality rather than some idealistic dreamland that people float around in.
Holding our policy makers to account sounds great, but we are in a place where that counts for nothing in the grand scheme so you may aswell look after your own nest-imo.

Being honest, what you have written there regarding your grand children makes me feel pretty sad.

[oldie]

Oct 8, 2023 16:27:41 GMT francegas said:

Oct 8, 2023 15:42:27 GMT oldie said:

My personal fear is that the forces of Hezbollah become involved which has the potential of dragging Iran into open conflict with Israel.
America would not let Israel fall which means fighting Iran.
The potential loss of life is frightening.

The Straits of Hormuz would be closed and oil exports from Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi threatened.

The world economy would tank in a hurry. Forget HS2 arguments, think food on the table.

I don't think Iran would hesitate in getting into open conflict with Israel. Isn't their ultimate goal to wipe Israel off the face of the world along with most of the countries that border Israel.

You mean they want to eliminate their allies Hezbollah in Lebanon...strange tactics if so. Is that a Tory thing?

[oldie]

Oct 8, 2023 16:34:50 GMT stuart1974 said:

Oct 8, 2023 15:42:27 GMT oldie said:

My personal fear is that the forces of Hezbollah become involved which has the potential of dragging Iran into open conflict with Israel.
America would not let Israel fall which means fighting Iran.
The potential loss of life is frightening.

The Straits of Hormuz would be closed and oil exports from Iraq, Kuwait and Saudi threatened.

The world economy would tank in a hurry. Forget HS2 arguments, think food on the table.

Would be surprised to see any direct action between Israel and Iran, it'll stay between proxies imo.

Where there may be conflict is if Iran tries to disrupt shipping in the Strait of Hormuz, we can expect an increase in naval deployments to escort shipping.

On a more selfish note, may be worth fixing fuel tariff.

I fixed mine in July😜
It's a difficult economic situation in Iran. They may try and leverage some gain on that front.

[oldie]

Oct 8, 2023 17:54:12 GMT gashead79 said:

Oct 8, 2023 12:11:48 GMT oldie said:

Ok
Then surely we, as members of our democracy (so called), have a duty to hold our politicians, policy makers, to account?
Playing the ultra cynic card renders that possibility (however slim) impossible. Correct me if my impression of you is incorrect but you play the cynic card constantly across a range of topics.

With regard to offspring I have two adult sons and five grandchildren. Believe it or not we discuss such matters often and the potential impact on the grandchildren. (Ages 5 to 23)
The older ones are engaged as a result (I believe)

Just recently the parents of the 5 year old twins had a decision re COVID vaccines. Having been granted green cards in the USA the question of the children arose. They would gain automatic status due to their parents until the age of 18, at which time they would lose it. Or, get a COVID booster now and be granted the green card now which is a lifetime privilege. Torn between taking a wholly unnecessary vaccine (at their age) we discussed it at length. They chose to guarantee the legal status over the miniscule risk associated with vaccine.

These are real time issues which if we were a family of cynics rather than logic the grandkids would have had a degree of uncertainty embedded in their lives.

I am not, absolutely not, raising this example to challenge you on that point. But more to challenge the cynical "stand offish" quips that you make more generally.
In summary you state, in short sentences, your opinion but never explain why.
Not that you have to of course.

You have made some thought provoking points here. I understand your view of my posts and agree, mainly because I use this forum in that way rather than getting into the weeds of a particular topic.
We will disagree on things, example being the covid example you have just stated-which to me is absolutely ridiculous.
As usual you have taken an opportunity to go off on a tangent which is fine, I can see you want to speak on things that you are comfortable with. Wrt playing the cynic card, yes that is a result of living in reality rather than some idealistic dreamland that people float around in.
Holding our policy makers to account sounds great, but we are in a place where that counts for nothing in the grand scheme so you may aswell look after your own nest-imo.

Being honest, what you have written there regarding your grand children makes me feel pretty sad.

I would challenge you on my desire to speak on things that I am "comfortable" with. I will happily debate just about any topic. Whilst not playing the cynic card in an attempt to shut down conversation.
No need to feel sad for the grandkids, they will probably never be aware of the decision made. At the same time their childhood and development will not be blighted by cynicism imposed by their parents.

Something that makes me feel proud and not sad.