Israel

[wertongas]

Oct 10, 2023 19:42:47 GMT oldie said:

Oct 10, 2023 11:45:43 GMT wertongas said:

Oldie the average DNA of an English person is 60% anglo celtic (British Irish) the rest being made up from the Viking countries and a bit of Gernman/ French , so yes when the Romans left  Britain we did revert back to a celtic nation. The difference between Britain and Isarel is that we managed to keep out most invaders except the Normans who were part English anyway and the Vikings. Where as Isarel not being an island didn't that does not mean to say Jewish people do not deserve to have their old lands back, like we have kept ours. 
You need to get your facts right mate. Why do you think the Jews re- settled where they did, it is there land long before anyone else, right back to the stone age . British, Arab and French occupation have been blips in their long history. 

You missed the bit about the Anglo Saxon invasion of the fifth century. But heh what's in a name and a few centuries.

As for getting my facts right (mate😂)
Why do you believe that Arabs from that area are not Semites?

To quote

"Ignorance. There have been many Semitic peoples in the world—not just Arabs and Jews, but also Samaritans (still around), Phoenicians (and their Carthaginian descendents), Assyrians, Babylonians, Canaanites, etc. etc. etc. The most visible Semitic peoples today are Jews and Arabs"

The people from that area now defined as Palestine were the same people, whether we define them now as Jews or Arabs.

Just for you

"The genetic profile of Palestinians has, for the first time, been studied by using human leukocyte antigen (HLA) gene variability and haplotypes. The comparison with other Mediterranean populations by using neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analyses reveal that Palestinians are genetically very close to Jews and other Middle East populations, including Turks (Anatolians), Lebanese, Egyptians, Armenians, and Iranians. Archaeologic and genetic data support that both Jews and Palestinians came from the ancient Canaanites, who extensively mixed with Egyptians, Mesopotamian, and Anatolian peoples in ancient times. Thus, Palestinian-Jewish rivalry is based in cultural and religious, but not in genetic, differences."

I suspect you know nothing of which you speak.

On the inclusion of term "Iranians" I was surprised at that as it is a bit lazy (given my limited exposure to that). But when you consider the various people who occupied the area we now call Iran in periods that pre dated the Romans and the extent of the land they controlled perhaps not. I do know (for a fact) that Iranians (Persians) recoil in horror if you should dare define them as Arabs who they look down upon and consider the imposition of Islam as an invasion (it was).

As always the smoke of religion has a lot to answer for.

Oldie I didn't refer to the saxon imigration into this country (modern thinking suggests it was not an invation ) as I refered to anglo celtic, where do you think the anglo came from !
Some argue that Arabs and other cultures are not semetic and I wasn't refering to the genetics of the people but to the Hebrew states of Iseral and Judah . Anyway there are many opinions on this matter and Iam not going to argue over it. 

[aghast]

I'm torn between revulsion at the actions of Hamas, fear for the extent of the Israeli response and worry about the resurgence in Islamist militancy we may see.

I do understand the resentment stored up by generations of Arabs in the region after the perhaps knee-jerk British resettlement plan after the second world war went so badly wrong, and the sometimes rapid, sometimes aggressive and sometimes stealthy expansion of Jewish territory. But I also understand the near-paranoia of the Israelis after the Holocaust and the desire and indeed need to regroup.

So I am confused and have no answers.

But some of the simplistic stuff on here is just nonsense and no Arabic native of the region could ever accept that territories abandoned (for many reasons) 800 years ago by the Jewish peoples can rightfully be reclaimed just because they once lived there, and therefore have more of a moral right to be there now than the Arabs.

[RD]

Oct 10, 2023 21:19:33 GMT trevorgas said:

Oct 10, 2023 21:03:26 GMT DrFaustus said:

If Hamas stopped doing it deliberately, Israel would retaliation.

Ah two wrongs make a right

In this case they do, yes.

Hamas must be totally anhiallated. They must be obliterated. And that is what Israel will indeed attempt very shortly.

Some sympathy for Palestinians, no sympathy for Hamas - an evil, terrorist organisation.

[oldie]

Oct 11, 2023 5:25:40 GMT RD said:

Oct 10, 2023 21:19:33 GMT trevorgas said:

Ah two wrongs make a right

In this case they do, yes.

Hamas must be totally anhiallated. They must be obliterated. And that is what Israel will indeed attempt very shortly.

Some sympathy for Palestinians, no sympathy for Hamas - an evil, terrorist organisation.

Were RD, it would be that simple.
I am afraid this violence will only succeed in breeding the next generation of extreme reactionaries

[gulfofaden]

Oct 11, 2023 6:17:25 GMT oldie said:

Oct 11, 2023 5:25:40 GMT RD said:

In this case they do, yes.

Hamas must be totally anhiallated. They must be obliterated. And that is what Israel will indeed attempt very shortly.

Some sympathy for Palestinians, no sympathy for Hamas - an evil, terrorist organisation.

Were RD, it would be that simple.
I am afraid this violence will only succeed in breeding the next generation of extreme reactionaries

You cannot give in because you fear reprisals.

We’ve tried this take with religious extremists before and it doesn’t work.

[DrFaustus]

Oct 10, 2023 21:19:33 GMT trevorgas said:

Oct 10, 2023 21:03:26 GMT DrFaustus said:

If Hamas stopped doing it deliberately, Israel would retaliation.

Ah two wrongs make a right

Didn't mean it like that, my apologies.

Israel for example, don't invade peaceful villages and massacre most of the inhabitants and behead and decapitate babies (Kfar Azar). Are they supposed to accept such behaviour from the savages of Hamas?

[trevorgas]

Oct 11, 2023 6:53:11 GMT DrFaustus said:

Oct 10, 2023 21:19:33 GMT trevorgas said:

Ah two wrongs make a right

Didn't mean it like that, my apologies.

Israel for example, don't invade peaceful villages and massacre most of the inhabitants and behead and decapitate babies (Kfar Azar). Are they supposed to accept such behaviour from the savages of Hamas?

No they don't have to accept it ,my point is that they have to be very surgical in what they do and mass air strikes do not accomplish that
Deal with Hamas however the killing of civilians I find hard to accept and of course breaks international law.

[oldie]

Oct 11, 2023 6:53:11 GMT DrFaustus said:

Oct 10, 2023 21:19:33 GMT trevorgas said:

Ah two wrongs make a right

Didn't mean it like that, my apologies.

Israel for example, don't invade peaceful villages and massacre most of the inhabitants and behead and decapitate babies (Kfar Azar). Are they supposed to accept such behaviour from the savages of Hamas?

No of course not.
But similarly should Palestinians just accept being attacked by Zionist zealots in the West Bank, be forcibly moved from their villages to make way for illegal settlements? To live in what is in effect an apartheid state? This has been going on for 50 years and it is the impotence of PLO administration that pushed Palestinians into the deadly embrace of the loonies in HAMAS.

The west has been complicit in this by looking the other way.
Nothing, absolutely nothing, justifies the barbarism of what has occured since Saturday.
But reducing Gaza City to rubble,to create another refugee crisis, is only going sow the seeds of a repeat. Like a horror movie that gets worse with each viewing.

[trevorgas]

Oct 11, 2023 6:17:25 GMT oldie said:

Oct 11, 2023 5:25:40 GMT RD said:

In this case they do, yes.

Hamas must be totally anhiallated. They must be obliterated. And that is what Israel will indeed attempt very shortly.

Some sympathy for Palestinians, no sympathy for Hamas - an evil, terrorist organisation.

Were RD, it would be that simple.
I am afraid this violence will only succeed in breeding the next generation of extreme reactionaries

Absolutely right Les ,history is littered with cycles of violence that just continue to perpetuate cycles of violence,a solution has to be found although that has seemingly proved to be very difficult so far doesn't mean it should be abandoned.
I have total sympathy for innocent civilians whose already wretched lives will be made all the worse by this.

[RD]

Oct 11, 2023 7:36:05 GMT trevorgas said:

Oct 11, 2023 6:17:25 GMT oldie said:

Were RD, it would be that simple.
I am afraid this violence will only succeed in breeding the next generation of extreme reactionaries

Absolutely right Les ,history is littered with cycles of violence that just continue to perpetuate cycles of violence,a solution has to be found although that has seemingly proved to be very difficult so far doesn't mean it should be abandoned.
I have total sympathy for innocent civilians whose already wretched lives will be made all the worse by this.

Absolutely. The innocent people I have nothing but sympathy for.

The issue is that Hamas are barbarians. Savages. So whilst I agree answering violence with violence is largely irrational, I see no other option here; they have to be wiped out.

I also get the argument about them then simply being replaced by the next extremist group, but - if "talking" and education is truly the only way to end this (and FWIW, I'm largely in agreement) - it stands more chance of success with someone other than Hamas; Hamas will not talk. They will not listen. They will only continue to slaughter completely innocent people. BABIES FFS.

Bluntly put, they need to be wiped out. Then there needs to be a period of talking and listening from both sides to try to avoid (as much as possible) a new extremist group filling the void. Is that naïve? Almost certainly. Will somebody ultimately fill the void - I'm sure they will.

But the ONLY option with Hamas in particular is total annihilation IMO. Any talk of being able to achieve anything with Hamas, other than the continued slaughter of innocent civilians is even more naïve.

[gulfofaden]

While rightly the UK has accommodated many of its former colonies - as the saying goes, they are here because we were over there, I wonder if this logic could be applied to the Middle East?

Check a map of the religion of the ME and you will see historically the expansion of Islam to encompass a vast area. This was mostly by conquest, and incorporated parts of Europe.

Isreal is a tiny strip of land in a sea of Islamic regions. That’s all they have. You might think the progressively minded Islamic peoples of the Middle East might feel some sympathy to their plight, and the plight of all others who were conquered, murdered and marginalised in the expansion of Islam. Just as we feel shame and regret over the excesses of the British and European empires.

Go on to any YouTube video covering this and you will see so many comments praising Hamas and gleefully celebrating the murder of Israelis. The sheer volume and ratio to the clearly good souls who just want an end to bloodshed, but there is a clear majority for bloodlust.

As I’ve said before, the change here needs to come from the huge majority in the Middle East, not from Isreal, who’s only choice is to either self destruct or fight.

I note virtually none of the Israelis I’ve seen commenting are amped up on vengeance.

Perhaps there’s a bit of David v Goliath and that’s why they are cheering it. It does make me wonder whether they can ever be reasoned with.

[trevorgas]

Oct 11, 2023 7:54:24 GMT RD said:

Oct 11, 2023 7:36:05 GMT trevorgas said:

Absolutely right Les ,history is littered with cycles of violence that just continue to perpetuate cycles of violence,a solution has to be found although that has seemingly proved to be very difficult so far doesn't mean it should be abandoned.
I have total sympathy for innocent civilians whose already wretched lives will be made all the worse by this.

Absolutely. The innocent people I have nothing but sympathy for.

The issue is that Hamas are barbarians. Savages. So whilst I agree answering violence with violence is largely irrational, I see no other option here; they have to be wiped out.

I also get the argument about them then simply being replaced by the next extremist group, but - if "talking" and education is truly the only way to end this (and FWIW, I'm largely in agreement) - it stands more chance of success with someone other than Hamas; Hamas will not talk. They will not listen. They will only continue to slaughter completely innocent people. BABIES FFS.

Bluntly put, they need to be wiped out. Then there needs to be a period of talking and listening from both sides to try to avoid (as much as possible) a new extremist group filling the void. Is that naïve? Almost certainly. Will somebody ultimately fill the void - I'm sure they will.

But the ONLY option with Hamas in particular is total annihilation IMO. Any talk of being able to achieve anything with Hamas, other than the continued slaughter of innocent civilians is even more naïve.

I don't disagree,in the end the fighting will not bring a solution,if you look at the end of WW2,the total defeat of the Nazis and occupation was a precursor to a solution that involved the victors by and large rebuilding Germany etc etc
I don't get a sense that type of model is on the Agenda here, occupation and the virtual imprisonment of 2.5m People will never work.
It's hard for Israel with its extreme right to go down the route of reconciliation, investment in infrastructure in Gaza etc etc
Also there has to be a willingness for the other side to come to the party .
Unfortunately,I see no chance and if I lived to be a 100 this will still be going on .

[wertongas]

The biggest problem is Hamas, when Yasser Arafat was head of the Palastinians there was a peace agreement and hope, but he died suddenly and Hamas took power since then there has been no hope of peace, really they need to be removed from power before things will improve. The Moslem/Arab states show sympathy for the Plastinians but secretly many would happily be glad to see the back of Hamas' especially Egypt. Unfortunatly while they are still there these dreadful attrocities against inocent families on both sides will continue. Palastine needs it's own country whether it is  in Gazza, North east Egypt or Jorden ( poss west bank), but it is going to take along time for this to happen now.

[oldie]

Oct 11, 2023 8:24:02 GMT wertongas said:

The biggest problem is Hamas, when Yasser Arafat was head of the Palastinians there was a peace agreement and hope, but he died suddenly and Hamas took power since then there has been no hope of peace, really they need to be removed from power before things will improve. The Moslem/Arab states show sympathy for the Plastinians but secretly many would happily be glad to see the back of Hamas' especially Egypt. Unfortunatly while they are still there these dreadful attrocities against inocent families on both sides will continue. Palastine needs it's own country whether it is  in Gazza, North east Egypt or Jorden ( poss west bank), but it is going to take along time for this to happen now.

The biggest problem is the appropriation of land agreed to after 1948 but taken after the 1967 war. Since then the Zionist extremists have been pushing out Palestinians from their villages and building illegal settlements. This has been going on for nearly 50 years, HAMAS and associated loonies came to power in 2007...during that interim period (67-2007) the West looked the other way as the Zionist loonies refused to obey UN mandates. In 1982 the Israelis were complicit in the massacre of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon. To wit

"From approximately 18:00 on 16 September to 08:00 on 18 September 1982, a widespread massacre was carried out by the militia, while the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) had the camp surrounded.[5][6][7][8] The militia had been ordered by the IDF to clear Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) fighters out of Sabra and Shatila, as part of the IDF's maneuvering into West Beirut. As the massacre unfolded, the IDF received reports of atrocities but did not take any action to prevent or stop the massacre.[9]"

Violence begats violence.
And so it goes on.

Equally nauseating is the hypocrisy of the west as it stands by and watches.

[DrFaustus]

Les, if you're blaming Israel for the woes of the Middle East, then you're more of an apologist for the lunatics of Arab and Iranian extremism Than I thought possible.

Egypt, Israel, Jordan and Palestinians in Syria attacked Israel in 1967. Of dear, they lost. Good.

Don't blame Israel for the actions of the fascists that perpetuate this carnage.

[oldie]

Oct 11, 2023 14:25:41 GMT DrFaustus said:

Les, if you're blaming Israel for the woes of the Middle East, then you're more of an apologist for the lunatics of Arab and Iranian extremism Than I thought possible.

Egypt, Israel, Jordan and Palestinians in Syria attacked Israel in 1967. Of Dam dear, they lost. Good.

Not an apologist for lunatics anywhere Grant. Just stating the history. I wonder what would have happened if the Balfour Declaration had never happened, if we had not walked away from Palestine in 1948 with our half assed ideas of autonomous areas in Palestine unfulfilled with our tails between our legs. What would have happened if we had not engineered a coup in Iran in 1952 and imposed a fascist monarchy on those people?

Quite possibly 1967 would never have happened nor 1979 in Iran.

But WE did and it did happen.

[pirate]

It goes without saying the actions of Hamas were horrific, two wrongs don't make a right. 

Israeli defense minister Yoav Gallant announced on Monday that “we are imposing a complete siege on [Gaza]. No electricity, no food, no water, no fuel – everything is closed...."We are fighting human animals, and we act accordingly,” he said of Gaza’s population of more than two million Palestinians, half of whom are children, and most of whom are refugees.

Collective Punishment = War Crime

The Palestinian envoy to the United Nations on Tuesday slammed Israel for conducting a “genocidal” campaign against Gaza. “These acts constitute war crimes,” Palestinian UN envoy Riyad Mansour wrote in a letter to the UN Security Council on Tuesday, reported by Reuters. “Such blatant dehumanization and attempts to bomb a people into submission, to use starvation as a method of warfare, and to eradicate their national existence are nothing less than genocidal,” Mansour wrote.

The Palestinian Red Crescent rescue service said that Israeli jets bombed its headquarters in Gaza. The Ministry of Health in Gaza said Israel is “deliberately targeting” Palestinian medical workers. Israeli airstrikes have hit at least two hospitals and two centres run by the Palestine Red Crescent Society.  

(War Crimes)

In the first three days of fighting, at least seven Palestinian journalists were killed, two were missing and two injured, according to the Committee to Protect Journalists. 

(War Crimes)

Euro-Med Human Rights Monitor is "documenting Israel's use of what is believed to be phosphorus munitions in Sahl al-Mari & Shebaa Farms in Lebanon" and also "documenting multiple similar incidents around Gaza."

Euro-Med Human Rights Moniton also covering "Deeply disturbing potential war crime: the IDF posted a doctored video alleging eliminating combatants. But their own footage shows said individuals unarmed, raising their hands up & kneeling down to surrender before IDF soldiers execute them from the back."

“Deliberately targeting civilians, carrying out disproportionate attacks, and indiscriminate attacks which kill or injure civilians are war crimes. Israel has a horrific track record of committing war crimes with impunity in previous wars on Gaza" said Agnès Callamard, Amnesty International’s Secretary General.

By the way, the source for the "beheaded babies" claim is Israeli channel i24 News. A Haaretz investigation previously found that i24 News functions as a proxy for the Netanyahu family, with directives coming directly from the Israeli Prime Minister's office at times.i24 News has employed at least 35 veterans of the Israeli occupation forces as staff.

- David Matlin, the host of a daily flagship show on i24News, is a former Israeli military sergeant and the regional director for Israel lobby group AIPAC

- Eyal Pinko, who was the head of intelligence in the Israeli Navy before becoming the head of division in the Israeli prime minister's office, is another correspondent for the channel.

- The suspicion of owner of i24News Patrick Drahi's links to Israeli intelligence is such that when he became the top shareholder in British Telecom, he was investigated by the British government due to "national security" concerns.

The nutjob US Senator Lindsey Graham appeared on Fox News on Wednesday, saying that what was happening was a “religious war” and that he is “with Israel”. He also said he believes that Israel “should do whatever it takes to defend itself” and that Gaza should be “levelled”.

Israeli media reported that the Israeli army would provide settlers in the West Bank with around 1,000 rifles, likely provided as US military assistance to Israel – further arming and emboldening settler vigilantes who have waged multiple deadly pogroms in Palestinian communities in recent months. Lindsey Graham and his ilk will be pleased.

A member of the Israeli parliament, Revital Gotliv, called on Israel to consider using nuclear weapons in a post on social media platform X on Monday: "Jericho missile! Jericho missile! A strategic alert, before we consider introducing our forces. A doomsday weapon!,” she wrote. 

(Jericho missiles refer to an intermediate-range ballistic missile developed and produced by Israel. It has a 4,800-6,500 km range and is reportedly equipped with a 750 kg nuclear warhead.)

"Only an explosion that shakes the Middle East will restore this country's dignity, strength, and security! It's time to kiss doomsday," Gotliv added in another post on X. She also called on Israel to “shoot powerful missiles without limit. Not flattening a neighbourhood. Crushing and flattening Gaza.” In a series of following posts, she said that Israel should use “penetrating bombs, without mercy”

Bel Trew, The Independent’s Chief International Correspondent, using the X platform, wrote: "Gaza: The UN just told me 9 UN staffers have been killed in Gaza, 18 UN buildings have sustained damage, their schools are at over capacity with the displaced. They are running out of supplies. Gaza’s power plant has run out of fuel “This is a catastrophe unfolding”.

So sad.

[oldie]

Gulp....it's hard to comprehend the inhumanity.

[DrFaustus]

Oct 11, 2023 22:33:32 GMT oldie said:

Gulp....it's hard to comprehend the inhumanity.

Agreed.

Oh, you weren't talking about the beheading of children, the raping of women and the torture of all?

Got you.

Once again...until the fanatic Nazis (because that's what they are) stop, accept Israel has a right to exist, things won't move on.

Until then, screw Hamas, their fascist apologists and the rest of those who wish harm on the sole democracy in the Middle East.





Edited for spelling and grammar mistakes.

[pirate]

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