Putin

[gas2]

Today Putin accused Ukraine of targeting civilians in Moscow with drone attacks how many civilians has he killed in Ukraine you could not make this up 

[oldie]

May 30, 2023 15:32:21 GMT gas2 said:

Today Putin accused Ukraine of targeting civilians in Moscow with drone attacks how many civilians has he killed in Ukraine you could not make this up 

How many civilians did we kill in Iraq....

[gas2]

How many civilians get killed in all wars

[oldie]

May 30, 2023 17:00:44 GMT gas2 said:

How many civilians get killed in all wars

Yes of course...but as you raised the issue of Putin's forces killing civilians after invading Ukraine, how many civilians were killed when the USA/UK invaded Iraq. After all the justifications were loosely similar?

[francegas]

May 30, 2023 16:46:54 GMT oldie said:

May 30, 2023 15:32:21 GMT gas2 said:

Today Putin accused Ukraine of targeting civilians in Moscow with drone attacks how many civilians has he killed in Ukraine you could not make this up 

How many civilians did we kill in Iraq....

Over 300k but the final figure is probably more. Two illegal wars Putin has blood on his hands as does Blair.

[yattongas]

May 30, 2023 17:40:34 GMT francegas said:

May 30, 2023 16:46:54 GMT oldie said:

How many civilians did we kill in Iraq....

Over 300k but the final figure is probably more. Two illegal wars Putin has blood on his hands as does Blair.

Tory MP’s voted for that war if I remember correctly.

[francegas]

May 30, 2023 17:55:00 GMT yattongas said:

May 30, 2023 17:40:34 GMT francegas said:

Over 300k but the final figure is probably more. Two illegal wars Putin has blood on his hands as does Blair.

Tory MP’s voted for that war if I remember correctly.

But it was on Blair's watch. He was PM he takes responsibility.

[stuart1974]

May 30, 2023 17:40:34 GMT francegas said:

May 30, 2023 16:46:54 GMT oldie said:

How many civilians did we kill in Iraq....

Over 300k but the final figure is probably more. Two illegal wars Putin has blood on his hands as does Blair.

Two?

[francegas]

May 30, 2023 17:55:00 GMT yattongas said:

May 30, 2023 17:40:34 GMT francegas said:

Over 300k but the final figure is probably more. Two illegal wars Putin has blood on his hands as does Blair.

Tory MP’s voted for that war if I remember correctly.

Mind you if any any MP was spun a web of lies about weapons of mass destruction by the PM is it no wonder they voted for the invasion.

[oldie]

May 30, 2023 18:16:16 GMT francegas said:

May 30, 2023 17:55:00 GMT yattongas said:

Tory MP’s voted for that war if I remember correctly.

Mind you if any any MP was spun a web of lies about weapons of mass destruction by the PM is it no wonder they voted for the invasion.

Ok,
If you want to colour invasions by political party...who invaded Egypt in 1956...?

[oldie]

Which political party supported the apartheid regime in South Africa?

[yattongas]

May 30, 2023 18:59:17 GMT oldie said:

May 30, 2023 18:16:16 GMT francegas said:

Mind you if any any MP was spun a web of lies about weapons of mass destruction by the PM is it no wonder they voted for the invasion.

Ok,
If you want to colour invasions by political party...who invaded Egypt in 1956...?

That’s why I mentioned it 😂
Good old France will take any and every reason to have a pop at Labour …. Bless him 😀
#NeverForgetStarmersCurry

[francegas]

May 30, 2023 19:38:20 GMT yattongas said:

May 30, 2023 18:59:17 GMT oldie said:

Ok,
If you want to colour invasions by political party...who invaded Egypt in 1956...?

That’s why I mentioned it 😂
Good old France will take any and every reason to have a pop at Labour …. Bless him 😀
#NeverForgetStarmersCurry

Egypt 1956 .... were anyone of us alive then?? What's Egypt got to do with Iraq.

[stuart1974]

May 30, 2023 21:15:27 GMT francegas said:

May 30, 2023 19:38:20 GMT yattongas said:

That’s why I mentioned it 😂
Good old France will take any and every reason to have a pop at Labour …. Bless him 😀
#NeverForgetStarmersCurry

Egypt 1956 .... were anyone of us alive then?? What's Egypt got to do with Iraq.

Oldie can remember the Battle of Omdurman!!

I guess he's trying to point out that the Conservatives are just as guilty as Labour over manufacturing opinion to launch an invasion. Quite a few similarities between the two.

However, the OP is about Putin (qv my USSR thread).

[axegas]

Yeah there’s no point political point scoring about which party is the least bloodthirsty.

Let’s just hope we’ve learnt our lesson from Iraq, Afghanistan and by the time this war in Ukraine has ended, Vladimir Putin has done the same (well hopefully he’s been deposed).

[oldie]

May 30, 2023 23:31:47 GMT axegas said:

Yeah there’s no point political point scoring about which party is the least bloodthirsty.

Let’s just hope we’ve learnt our lesson from Iraq, Afghanistan and by the time this war in Ukraine has ended, Vladimir Putin has done the same (well hopefully he’s been deposed).

Yeah of course.
But the problem is we do not learn the lessons of history do we (I refer to the West in general here).
Mainly because the general population are prone to the propaganda of the self interests of asset owning minority

[stuart1974]

May 31, 2023 6:28:45 GMT oldie said:

May 30, 2023 23:31:47 GMT axegas said:

Yeah there’s no point political point scoring about which party is the least bloodthirsty.

Let’s just hope we’ve learnt our lesson from Iraq, Afghanistan and by the time this war in Ukraine has ended, Vladimir Putin has done the same (well hopefully he’s been deposed).

Yeah of course.
But the problem is we do not learn the lessons of history do we (I refer to the West in general here).
Mainly because the general population are prone to the propaganda of the self interests of asset owning minority

Or we are learning from history vis a vis the 1930s and the unchecked rise of a dictator.

[oldie]

May 31, 2023 6:56:37 GMT stuart1974 said:

May 31, 2023 6:28:45 GMT oldie said:

Yeah of course.
But the problem is we do not learn the lessons of history do we (I refer to the West in general here).
Mainly because the general population are prone to the propaganda of the self interests of asset owning minority

Or we are learning from history vis a vis the 1930s and the unchecked rise of a dictator.

I will follow your lead.
So why didn't we intervene more strongly when Putin annexed Crimea in 2014?
Nothing to do with the capital flows into the City per chance when the UK economy was flatlining under Tory fiscal policies? Or the Americans wanting a stable oil market to keep there allies (they thought they were allies) happy in the Middle East?

Ukraine? Pah, it's just a backward country on the edge of Europe full of dodgy, corrupt political leaders.

Czechoslovakia anyone, learning from that?

When it suits

[stuart1974]

May 31, 2023 7:07:25 GMT oldie said:

May 31, 2023 6:56:37 GMT stuart1974 said:

Or we are learning from history vis a vis the 1930s and the unchecked rise of a dictator.

I will follow your lead.
So why didn't we intervene more strongly when Putin annexed Crimea in 2014?
Nothing to do with the capital flows into the City per chance when the UK economy was flatlining under Tory fiscal policies? Or the Americans wanting a stable oil market to keep there allies (they thought they were allies) happy in the Middle East?

Ukraine? Pah, it's just a backward country on the edge of Europe full of dodgy, corrupt political leaders.

Czechoslovakia anyone, learning from that?

When it suits

We did, much of it was behind the scenes. We started a training programme of officers and NCOs to Nato standards and procedures amongst other things. Look up Operation Orbital, Operation Unifier and more generally, the Multinational Joint Commission.

One of the reasons Ukraine was able to resist the first attacks.

One of the difficulties is that much of the world was and remains pretty ambivalent or even supportive of Russia and Putin, it's taken this big step of invasion to bring many countries together and even now, there are those who back him.

[oldie]

May 31, 2023 7:35:54 GMT stuart1974 said:

May 31, 2023 7:07:25 GMT oldie said:

I will follow your lead.
So why didn't we intervene more strongly when Putin annexed Crimea in 2014?
Nothing to do with the capital flows into the City per chance when the UK economy was flatlining under Tory fiscal policies? Or the Americans wanting a stable oil market to keep there allies (they thought they were allies) happy in the Middle East?

Ukraine? Pah, it's just a backward country on the edge of Europe full of dodgy, corrupt political leaders.

Czechoslovakia anyone, learning from that?

When it suits

We did, much of it was behind the scenes. We started a training programme of officers and NCOs to Nato standards and procedures amongst other things. Look up Operation Orbital, Operation Unifier and more generally, the Multinational Joint Commission.

One of the reasons Ukraine was able to resist the first attacks.

One of the difficulties is that much of the world was and remains pretty ambivalent or even supportive of Russia and Putin, it's taken this big step of invasion to bring many countries together and even now, there are those who back him.

Sorry
But that is piecemeal.
What might have happened if we had brought in the same level of sanctions, financial, trade and political as we have over the last year? Might that have disrupted the Russian economy enough to discourage further attempts at land grab?
I reckon, but in any event enhanced training of NCOs certainly did not.

So why didn't we?
I refer to my previous points