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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 12:51:00 GMT
Goodness me.
The outrage over one group in our society highlighting the prejudice, historical and current, beggars belief.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 13:04:26 GMT
Correction - how he's chosen to perceive the movement and taking a knee. Rightly or wrongly, the objectives of the BLM are well documented and evidently go well beyond striving for racial equality. The idea that the political ideology has hijacked the movement is simply false. By football aligning itself to a movement/ritual so entwined with extremist and provocative connotations, Saturday's reaction was inevitable. Simply branding anyone who speaks out against BLM as racist is lazy and demonstrates real ignorance and a frightening intolerance for freedom of thought. It's deeply concerning how so many prominent figures can't distinguish between racism and voicing disapproval for BLM support. Football needs it's own way/gesture to promote racial equality which I've no doubt 99.9% would get behind. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 13:06:02 GMT
It's sad that it's got to that point isn't it, but it makes clear that racists aren't welcome at his football club. If you protest against black players finally making a stand against racism then you are either a racist or a dangerous idiot, it's as simple as that. The issue here is that the BLM movement isn't simple. |
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Post by axegas on Dec 7, 2020 13:27:56 GMT
Correction - how he's chosen to perceive the movement and taking a knee. Rightly or wrongly, the objectives of the BLM are well documented and evidently go well beyond striving for racial equality. The idea that the political ideology has hijacked the movement is simply false. By football aligning itself to a movement/ritual so entwined with extremist and provocative connotations, Saturday's reaction was inevitable. Simply branding anyone who speaks out against BLM as racist is lazy and demonstrates real ignorance and a frightening intolerance for freedom of thought. It's deeply concerning how so many prominent figures can't distinguish between racism and voicing disapproval for BLM support. Football needs it's own way/gesture to promote racial equality which I've no doubt 99.9% would get behind. Well in that case I should correct you again and say the objectives of BLM UK are well documented, a fringe group with nothing to do with the social movement as a whole or the EFL’s decision for clubs to take the knee. Such an action which is clearly in support of the fight against the discrimination of black people and nothing else. Football has its own way of promoting racial equality and fighting other forms of discrimination, kick it out. The problem is that has failed to generate a fraction of the conversation about Racism in sport as BLM has done in the last few months. Let’s be honest, how many people fail to bat an eyelid when the players wear kick it out t-shirts in their pre match warmup? I’m not going to tar everyone who doesn’t support BLM with the same brush, because the truth is I think most people can agree that discrimination in all its forms is wrong and I don’t think it’s inherently racist just to disagree with kneeling. The thing is booing footballers who are just trying to make a stance against discrimination and those who support booing are just indirectly condoning those who do possess racist views, its sends a really bad message. I also think everyone knows perfectly well why the act of kneeling is performed by footballers, they just choose to conveniently ignore that in order to have a pop at a form of politics they don’t like / agree with. |
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Dec 7, 2020 13:33:22 GMT
Amazing that people can get so triggered by players taken the knee for about 20 seconds .
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Post by Gastafari on Dec 7, 2020 13:40:19 GMT
You're right all this type of stuff,like kick it out hasn't worked. The reality is life isn't perfect, never has been. It's what religion has called God and the Devil and psychologists positive and negative. It's doesn't work because to highlight a certain section of society the rest feel dismissed, so they express that and it causes division, so not only does it not work it makes it worse. Racism is just one evil in this world, there are a lot worse. Why don't we go down on one knee to draw attention to murders? Why not for rapists? If I would suggest we just did this for the murders and rapes of black people it wouldn't be difficult to see this is plainly wrong, easy to see. The problem with racism is the accusers and supporters are often wrong, as we have seen on this thread. We have just appointed a new manager. Not one forum poster suggested a black manager, why? I suggest it was because none were suitable not because of their skin colour. Although Tis born in Malta and with a slight colour,was rightly chosen because he was the most capable, this is how it should be. If we had appointed a manager who was black for the same reasons, there wouldn't be a backlash because very few people are racists. People want fairness. Genuine racism should be severely punished but let's not become divided as the power driven want. We each have an individual responsibility to each other just as we do with stopping the virus. I would like everyone to stop taking on board others opinions and think for ourselves with rationality, not to be influenced by those who have a hidden agenda, these people destroy all the good we have if we let them. And why do you think there are less black managers, less black people in positions of power, less black CEOs in ratio to the demographics of the UK? Do you think black people are inherently worse at those positions? What you're failing to see is that this goes much deeper than just 10 people applying for a job and you give it to the best candidate. No one has a problem with that, the problem is why are all of those candidate white? But of course, unfortunately when this discussion came up before, you categorically said 'there is no systematic or institutional racism in the UK'. You even rubbished an internal report from the NHS stating institutional racism, because you personally didn't see this issue in your work - therefore it can't be true. Simple. Equality of opportunity is not the same as equality of outcome. It's not hard to fathom. It really baffles me how some people struggle to understand this, and the thought that we are so able to advocate diversity, but not diversity of thought or opinion. Strange. Do you have the facts about how many Black people applied to be a Football Manager? What the clubs interview process was, the skills and credentials they were looking for, etc? Do you know the facts about how many Black people have applied or even have the skills to be in a position of power or a CEO? Black people are over represented in ratio to demographics in plenty of other areas too. So lets have an honest and frank discussion about it but dont just throw out the boring statements like " There's not enough Black managers, so it's RACISM" line. Show me the facts and data that prove this, and I might change my mind. |
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Post by Gastafari on Dec 7, 2020 13:42:31 GMT
Goodness me. The outrage over one group in our society highlighting the prejudice, historical and current, beggars belief. Thats not whats happening though, Oldie, is it? And you know it. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 13:48:19 GMT
Correction - how he's chosen to perceive the movement and taking a knee. Rightly or wrongly, the objectives of the BLM are well documented and evidently go well beyond striving for racial equality. The idea that the political ideology has hijacked the movement is simply false. By football aligning itself to a movement/ritual so entwined with extremist and provocative connotations, Saturday's reaction was inevitable. Simply branding anyone who speaks out against BLM as racist is lazy and demonstrates real ignorance and a frightening intolerance for freedom of thought. It's deeply concerning how so many prominent figures can't distinguish between racism and voicing disapproval for BLM support. Football needs it's own way/gesture to promote racial equality which I've no doubt 99.9% would get behind. Well in that case I should correct you again and say the objectives of BLM UK are well documented, a fringe group with nothing to do with the social movement as a whole or the EFL’s decision for clubs to take the knee. Such an action which is clearly in support of the fight against the discrimination of black people and nothing else. Football has its own way of promoting racial equality and fighting other forms of discrimination, kick it out. The problem is that has failed to generate a fraction of the conversation about Racism in sport as BLM has done in the last few months. Let’s be honest, how many people fail to bat an eyelid when the players wear kick it out t-shirts in their pre match warmup? I’m not going to tar everyone who doesn’t support BLM with the same brush, because the truth is I think most people can agree that discrimination in all its forms is wrong and I don’t think it’s inherently racist just to disagree with kneeling. The thing is booing footballers who are just trying to make a stance against discrimination and those who support booing are just indirectly condoning those who do possess racist views, its sends a really bad message. I also think everyone knows perfectly well why the act of kneeling is performed by footballers, they just choose to conveniently ignore that in order to have a pop at a form of politics they don’t like / agree with. We're not talking about BLM UK though are we? The act of taking a knee is linked back to the US movement which undoubtedly supports more than racial equality. Indeed the BLM UK movement have several question marks against them, not least after a series of anti-Zionist tweets and declaring their aims were to “to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately and systematically harm Black people in Britain and around the world.” That screams out as a socialist movement wouldn't you say? The fact that they've raised over £1m yet offer zero transparency regarding names of individuals running the organisation is more than concerning too. I'd argue that Kick It Out has achieved a fair bit in terms of awareness but could do a lot more. To be clear, I wouldn't boo players for taking a knee and I think the motivations are the right ones. However I don't feel it's the right way to continue and, as a result of the connotations and links, has the potential to become even more inflammatory and counter productive. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 13:58:40 GMT
Goodness me. The outrage over one group in our society highlighting the prejudice, historical and current, beggars belief. Thats not whats happening though, Oldie, is it? And you know it. Sorry Gastafari, I don't "know" it at all. I do get that to achieve real change then a degree of political policy will be required, as this is a movement for social change that's not surprising, is it? There will be people, perfectly legitimately who object to that change, I would just like to read the basis for their objection. As you are, I hope you don't find this rude, a member of that ethnic minority, it would be very interesting to hear your objection, as it appears you do, object. |
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Post by Gassy on Dec 7, 2020 13:58:53 GMT
And why do you think there are less black managers, less black people in positions of power, less black CEOs in ratio to the demographics of the UK? Do you think black people are inherently worse at those positions? What you're failing to see is that this goes much deeper than just 10 people applying for a job and you give it to the best candidate. No one has a problem with that, the problem is why are all of those candidate white? But of course, unfortunately when this discussion came up before, you categorically said 'there is no systematic or institutional racism in the UK'. You even rubbished an internal report from the NHS stating institutional racism, because you personally didn't see this issue in your work - therefore it can't be true. Simple. Equality of opportunity is not the same as equality of outcome. It's not hard to fathom. It really baffles me how some people struggle to understand this, and the thought that we are so able to advocate diversity, but not diversity of thought or opinion. Strange. Do you have the facts about how many Black people applied to be a Football Manager? Do you know the facts about how many Black people have applied or even have the skills to be in a position of power or a CEO? Black people are over represented in ratio to demographics in plenty of other areas too. So lets have an honest and frank discussion about it but dont just throw out the boring statements like " There's not enough Black managers, so it's RACISM" line. Show me the facts and data that prove this, and I might change my mind. Exactly, so the point I am saying is that we do not have equality of opportunity. Opportunity is not equally distributed, thank you for backing up my point. Those statistics you're asking for are impossible to prove for either argument, I can flip it to say do you know how many white people applied to be a football manager? It doesn't necessarily make either of our points correct. The question we should be asking is why don't we have enough black people in positions of power, rather than trying suggest that it's not a problem. Why do you think we don't have enough black people in positions of power? Can you show me the other areas where black people are over represented? Then to further that point once you've shown it, what your opinion is on why they're over represented there. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 14:11:33 GMT
Amazing that people can get so triggered by players taken the knee for about 20 seconds . It does raise questions though about what the parameters are here. Have we now established a permanent window for displays of solidarity with black people before the kick off of every game until black people feel they are treated fairly (which let’s be fair is probably not going to happen in our lifetimes)? If so, great, no problem with that. But if so why should it just be limited to black people? It’s only fair and equal to allow all forms of expression of solidarity in the window before kick off. But it doesn’t seem to work like that, certain forms of expression are unfairly punished- see Guardiola and also James McLean getting in trouble because of his views on the poppy iirc. Also according to the Colchester chairman the players have the right to express themselves but the fans don’t it seems. Why not clap to drown out the boo-ers rather than tell them their form of expression is being censored by them not being welcome and (presumably) being thrown out for not towing the party line? To be clear I don’t support people who boo anti-racism for anti-racism’s sake but BLM has a political edge to it and if people oppose the politics but support the anti-racism then trying to censor them is dangerous ground I feel if they are acting peacefully. you can’t give the players freedom of expression but take it away from the fans- that’s going to make things worse in the long run and stoke further division. Ultimately for me it comes down to new ways being needed to promote equality for black lives - this taking the knee is falling into the trap that clap for the nhs fell into where it gets in danger of becoming a parody of itself. A governing body with genuine ideas of how to improve would have nipped it in the bud by innovating and pivoting to a different form of expression everyone can get behind. But as I’ve said before the FA is old and out of touch and so is leaving it to the clubs to administer. |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Dec 7, 2020 14:16:53 GMT
As I understand it, the symbolism of 'taking the knee' started in 2016 with Colin Kaepernik and not the BLM movement.
It was then used by police during a rally in North Carolina.
If that's the case then surely it has either been misappropriated by BLM and needs to be regained or people are incorrectly associating the two.
Happy to be corrected.
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Post by Officer Barbrady on Dec 7, 2020 14:23:28 GMT
Actually I wanted to know how old you were. I'm surprised you asked. Wouldn't you also like to know my skin colour, religion, wealth, sexual orientation, attitude to the opposite sex (if there is such a thing !) ? Could be lots of ammunition there.  No, just your age. |
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Post by gashead1981 on Dec 7, 2020 14:30:45 GMT
I think that what is getting mixed is the taking of the knee being linked to BLM as a whole movement rather than the gesture of solidarity which is what it actually represents.
Colin Kapernick initially sat and then knelt during the national anthem to highlight the racism and oppression he perceived in America. To my knowledge it was nothing to do with BLM as a movement or organisation, but to raise awareness and gain some solidarity. The reaction that got at the time is almost mirrored by boos at Millwall and Colchester with some fans clearly not grasping what the knee taking actually means.
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Post by Gastafari on Dec 7, 2020 14:32:52 GMT
Simple. Equality of opportunity is not the same as equality of outcome. It's not hard to fathom. It really baffles me how some people struggle to understand this, and the thought that we are so able to advocate diversity, but not diversity of thought or opinion. Strange. Do you have the facts about how many Black people applied to be a Football Manager? Do you know the facts about how many Black people have applied or even have the skills to be in a position of power or a CEO? Black people are over represented in ratio to demographics in plenty of other areas too. So lets have an honest and frank discussion about it but dont just throw out the boring statements like " There's not enough Black managers, so it's RACISM" line. Show me the facts and data that prove this, and I might change my mind. Exactly, so the point I am saying is that we do not have equality of opportunity. Opportunity is not equally distributed, thank you for backing up my point. Those statistics you're asking for are impossible to prove for either argument, I can flip it to say do you know how many white people applied to be a football manager? It doesn't necessarily make either of our points correct. The question we should be asking is why don't we have enough black people in positions of power, rather than trying suggest that it's not a problem. Why do you think we don't have enough black people in positions of power? Can you show me the other areas where black people are over represented? Then to further that point once you've shown it, what your opinion is on why they're over represented there. What are you on about? There is opportunity. What leads you to say there isn't? You could ask me about White managers, and my answer would be the same. Look at facts and data to substantiate your claim. "Why don't we have ENOUGH Black people in positions of power? What do you mean by enough? Is 1 enough? 2? 10? 20? 100? What? How many would enough mean to you? That's the thing with your "Quota" mode of thinking. Other areas where Black people are over represented? Sure. University's and Higher Education for one, The Premier League and Football League, Professional Boxing, Professional Athletics, especially Track & Field. We can go further afield if you want, The NBA is literally 95% Black, how many other origins are in the 100m final in the Olympics? Lucky if you get 1 other. Like I said equality of opportunity does not mean equal outcome. |
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Post by axegas on Dec 7, 2020 14:37:08 GMT
Well in that case I should correct you again and say the objectives of BLM UK are well documented, a fringe group with nothing to do with the social movement as a whole or the EFL’s decision for clubs to take the knee. Such an action which is clearly in support of the fight against the discrimination of black people and nothing else. Football has its own way of promoting racial equality and fighting other forms of discrimination, kick it out. The problem is that has failed to generate a fraction of the conversation about Racism in sport as BLM has done in the last few months. Let’s be honest, how many people fail to bat an eyelid when the players wear kick it out t-shirts in their pre match warmup? I’m not going to tar everyone who doesn’t support BLM with the same brush, because the truth is I think most people can agree that discrimination in all its forms is wrong and I don’t think it’s inherently racist just to disagree with kneeling. The thing is booing footballers who are just trying to make a stance against discrimination and those who support booing are just indirectly condoning those who do possess racist views, its sends a really bad message. I also think everyone knows perfectly well why the act of kneeling is performed by footballers, they just choose to conveniently ignore that in order to have a pop at a form of politics they don’t like / agree with. We're not talking about BLM UK though are we? The act of taking a knee is linked back to the US movement which undoubtedly supports more than racial equality. Indeed the BLM UK movement have several question marks against them, not least after a series of anti-Zionist tweets and declaring their aims were to “to dismantle imperialism, capitalism, white-supremacy, patriarchy and the state structures that disproportionately and systematically harm Black people in Britain and around the world.” That screams out as a socialist movement wouldn't you say? The fact that they've raised over £1m yet offer zero transparency regarding names of individuals running the organisation is more than concerning too. I'd argue that Kick It Out has achieved a fair bit in terms of awareness but could do a lot more. To be clear, I wouldn't boo players for taking a knee and I think the motivations are the right ones. However I don't feel it's the right way to continue and, as a result of the connotations and links, has the potential to become even more inflammatory and counter productive. It’s fair to say I’ve had this conversation a few times before and the quote you’ve chosen inevitably comes up quite a bit. Now I wouldn’t place myself anything as far left as members of BLM, however with that quote, ask yourself just what is so wrong with it? Nothing wrong with dismantling imperialism, that kind of viewpoint belongs in the 19th century and the days of the British empire are long gone. Nothing wrong with dismantling white supremacy, as we are reminded all the time “all lives matter” not some more than others. Dismantling the patriarchy, again I see nothing wrong with wanting gender quality, especially in reference to black women who are one of the most marginalised groups in the UK. Then dismantling state structures that harm black people in Britain, is this not something everyone wants, to not have state run groups discriminating against ethnic minorities in the UK if it can be proved there is such a thing? The capitalist bit, which people seem to take offence to the most, I don’t interpret that as lets remove capitalism within the UK and replace it with a communist system where everyone is treated equally to the letter of the law. I read it as let’s combat the parts of capitalism that act against the interests of black people and make sure that black people in the workplace are fairly represented and their voices are heard, based on the skills and talents they possess. I’m not going to try to defend BLM UK as a movement because they exploited BLM for publicity and the chance to ask for donations. I just find it amusing that people bring up that quote to discredit BLM as a whole when actually there isn’t too much wrong with it if you don’t agree with discriminatory practices. As Stuart has rightfully pointed out above, the knee action stems back to Colin Kaepernick and his protest against his perceived injustices within the sport. So it predates the BLM protest entirely and therefore cannot be intrinsically linked with the political views that some advocates of the movement might be associated with. |
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Post by peterparker on Dec 7, 2020 14:44:23 GMT
There is certainly a debate to have on whether taking the knee at every match has diminishing returns, but at the same time there has to be something better than wheeling out Kick it out for one game a season
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 14:45:39 GMT
I think that what is getting mixed is the taking of the knee being linked to BLM as a whole movement rather than the gesture of solidarity which is what it actually represents. Colin Kapernick initially sat and then knelt during the national anthem to highlight the racism and oppression he perceived in America. To my knowledge it was nothing to do with BLM as a movement or organisation, but to raise awareness and gain some solidarity. The reaction that got at the time is almost mirrored by boos at Millwall and Colchester with some fans clearly not grasping what the knee taking actually means. I think it’s a fair observation that it has been misappropriated somewhere. The anthem is the key bit. We don’t have anthems in football games so it’s gotten kind of warped for the governing body to say “here you go, here’s a little sandbox for you to perform in” (because for me it is performance if they governing body tell you that’s what you have to do). It’s far from an authentic gesture of solidarity in that sense. Throwing in the black lives matter slogan then muddies the waters and gives it a political edge to object to whilst also providing cover for the real racists to hide under as they object to equality. We need to evolve from it |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 7, 2020 14:47:12 GMT
There is certainly a debate to have on whether taking the knee at every match has diminishing returns, but at the same time there has to be something better than wheeling out Kick it out for one game a season Exactly! But that’s the governing body’s job and apart from Greg Dyke resigning what are they doing to progress the agenda?! |
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Post by Gastafari on Dec 7, 2020 14:52:06 GMT
Thats not whats happening though, Oldie, is it? And you know it. Sorry Gastafari, I don't "know" it at all. I do get that to achieve real change then a degree of political policy will be required, as this is a movement for social change that's not surprising, is it? There will be people, perfectly legitimately who object to that change, I would just like to read the basis for their objection. As you are, I hope you don't find this rude, a member of that ethnic minority, it would be very interesting to hear your objection, as it appears you do, object. I object to BLM, yes. All you have to do is read up and do some research on them. I've made my feelings perfectly clear about them. Of course i'll champion other anti-racism campaigns, always have and always will. The taking of the knee has run it's course, and it's not just taking a knee anymore, a Derby player at Millwall was stood up, making a Black power salute. Like I said, I wouldn't boo, but I fully understand and appreciate why some people would. I also said Freedom of speech and expression, BUT only if it fits and follows one agenda, if you have a different view and opinion then you must be cancelled immediately it seems, backed up by the comments of the Colchester chairman. |
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