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Post by Hugh Jarsole on Jun 6, 2021 10:11:36 GMT
There is already a 13 page debate on this on page 3 of General Chat. Agreed, it should be merged, but it does no harm highlighting it again... IMO |
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Post by oldie on Jun 6, 2021 10:15:32 GMT
Defunding of our police is a statement conflated from a an issue in the States and will never happen here. Its a complete red herring Maybe it won't, but I think what people read in the media whether it's an American position or not, it is influencing people behaviour here. Perhaps. But the reality is that in the States defunding the police makes a nice headline and will never happen. What can happen, because of the nature of their local democracy, changes to funding levels and police management may well happen. Quite right to. Of course in our democracy we have no such option. A fact in itself which prevents real change. |
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Post by Hugh Jarsole on Jun 6, 2021 10:17:49 GMT
Thread merged
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Post by axegas on Jun 6, 2021 10:23:51 GMT
The ironic thing is, the more people boo it and the more a debate is had, the longer it will continue as a gesture. Just check out Southgate’s remarks after the Austria friendly.
Want it not to continue? Just shut up on a match day, respect it, and the likelier it is to fall out the public eye and die a quiet death.
I support the message behind the gesture, am dead against booing it, however I do think it’s probably had its time now all things considered. The more it becomes just another matchday routine, the more it becomes irrelevant IMO.
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Post by bluegas on Jun 6, 2021 10:25:24 GMT
As you suggest you don't know me, but it doesn't stop you from jumping to a conclusion. Which is what this whole thread is really about - daring to question the perceived wisdom. Thats deflection rather than address the point(s) I used in rebuttal I note that you have very carefully said "it appears to me", but your implied criticism is still plain. |
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Post by Jomo on Jun 6, 2021 10:34:31 GMT
The ironic thing is, the more people boo it and the more a debate is had, the longer it will continue as a gesture. Just check out Southgate’s remarks after the Austria friendly. Want it not to continue? Just shut up on a match day, respect it, and the likelier it is to fall out the public eye and die a quiet death. I support the message behind the gesture, am dead against booing it, however I do think it’s probably had its time now all things considered. The more it becomes just another matchday routine, the more it becomes irrelevant IMO. Great post axe and echoes my thoughts on it. It is becoming more and more of an irrelevance as it gets taken for granted as a pre-match ritual, but a player's or team's right to do it should be supported. What I simply do not get, is people being actively "against" it and booing it. As if it harms them in some way? What does the concept of equality do to offend or anger some people? This is what I'd like to know the answer to. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jun 6, 2021 10:56:22 GMT
The ironic thing is, the more people boo it and the more a debate is had, the longer it will continue as a gesture. Just check out Southgate’s remarks after the Austria friendly. Want it not to continue? Just shut up on a match day, respect it, and the likelier it is to fall out the public eye and die a quiet death. I support the message behind the gesture, am dead against booing it, however I do think it’s probably had its time now all things considered. The more it becomes just another matchday routine, the more it becomes irrelevant IMO. Great post axe and echoes my thoughts on it. It is becoming more and more of an irrelevance as it gets taken for granted as a pre-match ritual, but a player's or team's right to do it should be supported. What I simply do not get, is people being actively "against" it and booing it. As if it harms them in some way? What does the concept of equality do to offend or anger some people? This is what I'd like to know the answer to. The one question I asked and the one question that never gets answered. |
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Post by oldie on Jun 6, 2021 11:25:19 GMT
Great post axe and echoes my thoughts on it. It is becoming more and more of an irrelevance as it gets taken for granted as a pre-match ritual, but a player's or team's right to do it should be supported. What I simply do not get, is people being actively "against" it and booing it. As if it harms them in some way? What does the concept of equality do to offend or anger some people? This is what I'd like to know the answer to. The one question I asked and the one question that never gets answered. Because they cannot....ever |
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Jun 6, 2021 12:51:05 GMT
Great post axe and echoes my thoughts on it. It is becoming more and more of an irrelevance as it gets taken for granted as a pre-match ritual, but a player's or team's right to do it should be supported. What I simply do not get, is people being actively "against" it and booing it. As if it harms them in some way? What does the concept of equality do to offend or anger some people? This is what I'd like to know the answer to. The one question I asked and the one question that never gets answered. Everyone knows the answer to this but if you state the blindingly obvious you get called out for stating the blindingly obvious. 😊 |
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Post by syg on Jun 6, 2021 16:10:27 GMT
The only thing the team did consistently and ultimately a waste of time. Maybe we will have knee taking for Asians next next season. There you have it, in all its ugly glory Whats ugly about my comment? |
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Post by stuartcampbell on Jun 6, 2021 16:29:29 GMT
No place for racism. English football itself is very diverse in my opinion. Look at the England football squad selected for the euros and tell me it is not. But the whole anti police/defunding of the police is something I cannot support. BLM is the reason why we are seeing innocent police people trying to earn a living keeping the streets safe being attacked in Bristol - sorry that is not acceptable. When the police become defunded, but then crime increase; killings, robberies, rapes...people will then blame the police for not doing enough. Sorry but you can't support the police being defunded but then moan when there is no resource. I am all for anti racism, but BLM has become something that is just encouraging aggression rather than sensible discussion. I wholeheartedly disagree. Firstly, whilst English football players are very diverse; I think we have an huge issue when it comes to management. Secondly there's a difference between being anti-police and defunding the police. People forget the MacPherson report was only 20 or so years ago. There are huge issues with the police as an institution, which is highlighted in the phrase ACAB. And the second proposition I just don't see the relevance of. There are extremists/radicals in every social movement ever; the Suffragettes, the Indian Independence Movement, Stonewall, the Civil Rights Movements; these have all been watered down immensely. People act like everything was lardy dar and then BLM turned up and suddenly everything is violent. I don't support the assertion against defunding the police either; why are there killings, robberies, rape, fraud, violence? A lot of these are determined by outside factors like poverty, like lack of opportunity. With funding for the necessary institutions in place, I don't see the issue with the proposition of defunding the police. I don't support it mainly because I don't see it as a mutually exclusive issue; necessarily, but do I think less funding for the police if allocated for in the correct places will automatically lead to a surge in violent crime? No. Like Tories bring up Labour complaining about less funding for the police during the Cameron years as contradictory to their defund the police narrative; no it's not. Because defunding the police is a process. It's not just "give police less" it's what you do with that money. For me, think about the distinctions between BLM and the Civil Rights Movement; for me, there's not any. |
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Post by oldie on Jun 6, 2021 18:30:06 GMT
There you have it, in all its ugly glory Whats ugly about my comment? Very precisely |
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Post by tommym9 on Jun 7, 2021 18:00:37 GMT
Thing I don't get is people are saying that the knee is Marxist and BLM and all this, but I've never heard one player or manager talk that way.
Simply a gesture against racism. Who would want to boo that?
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Post by oldie on Jun 7, 2021 18:05:41 GMT
Thing I don't get is people are saying that the knee is Marxist and BLM and all this, but I've never heard one player or manager talk that way. Simply a gesture against racism. Who would want to boo that? I see our esteemed government are once again showing their true colours |
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Post by syg on Jun 7, 2021 19:15:24 GMT
Whats ugly about my comment? Very precisely Thanks for your forensic explanation. Are you denying that the team did the knee taking consistently well? I cant think of anything else, maybe tying their laces or putting on their kit. Whats it achieved? The normally adjusted of us still treat people the way we ourselves expect to be treated. As for those of a racist propensity, i cant see a load of knee taking footballers having much of an impression, if anything it appears to have many of them worse. As for knee taking for asian lives, if you dont think thats acceptable but are supporting the current nonsense then you are being racist. Id hazard a guess that we have more black players on the pitch than black fans in the stadium. Id like to see a community drive to turn that on its head, im presuming the club do work at that, seems more constructive than the knee. |
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Post by oldie on Jun 7, 2021 19:18:29 GMT
Thanks for your forensic explanation. Are you denying that the team did the knee taking consistently well? I cant think of anything else, maybe tying their laces or putting on their kit. Whats it achieved? The normally adjusted of us still treat people the way we ourselves expect to be treated. As for those of a racist propensity, i cant see a load of knee taking footballers having much of an impression, if anything it appears to have many of them worse. As for knee taking for asian lives, if you dont think thats acceptable but are supporting the current nonsense then you are being racist. Id hazard a guess that we have more black players on the pitch than black fans in the stadium. Id like to see a community drive to turn that on its head, im presuming the club do work at that, seems more constructive than the knee. I dont need to say anything more about your posts. You are doing a fine job of compounding the impression already given (by yourself) |
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Jun 7, 2021 19:24:20 GMT
Thanks for your forensic explanation. Are you denying that the team did the knee taking consistently well? I cant think of anything else, maybe tying their laces or putting on their kit. Whats it achieved? The normally adjusted of us still treat people the way we ourselves expect to be treated. As for those of a racist propensity, i cant see a load of knee taking footballers having much of an impression, if anything it appears to have many of them worse. As for knee taking for asian lives, if you dont think thats acceptable but are supporting the current nonsense then you are being racist. Id hazard a guess that we have more black players on the pitch than black fans in the stadium. Id like to see a community drive to turn that on its head, im presuming the club do work at that, seems more constructive than the knee. Eh ? 🥴 |
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Post by Gastafari on Jun 7, 2021 20:11:42 GMT
Wasn't it just a few weeks ago where we were all being told "Football is nothing, without the fans" after the 'Big 6' nonsense.
That is of course unless they disagree with you, showing displeasure at the taking of the knee, by booing for example.
Yet again it's sheer hypocrisy.
I wouldn't boo myself, but just as its the players right to take the knee if they so wish, it is also the fans right to show their displeasure if they so wish too
I thought we all have a right to protest?
Kick It Out and other Anti-Racism campagns don't get this treatment, because it's something we can all get behind and I think the majority wholeheartedly support those.
The taking of the knee is different.
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Post by Gassy on Jun 7, 2021 20:26:06 GMT
Wasn't it just a few weeks ago where we were all being told "Football is nothing, without the fans" after the 'Big 6' nonsense. That is of course unless they disagree with you, showing displeasure at the taking of the knee, by booing for example. Yet again it's sheer hypocrisy. I wouldn't boo myself, but just as its the players right to take the knee if they so wish, it is also the fans right to show their displeasure if they so wish too I thought we all have a right to protest? Kick It Out and other Anti-Racism campagns don't get this treatment, because it's something we can all get behind and I think the majority wholeheartedly support those. The taking of the knee is different. But most of the fans gave a standing ovation and got right behind it (England Vs Romania), so what should we do? People didn't have an issue with Kick it out because it did nothing. Players wore a t-shirt, nothing changed, racism in football actually became more apparent (although probably more due to technology) and everyone went along their merry way. Taking the knee has probably lost its meaning of what it stood for at the time, but its also evolved now to be against racism. Taking the knee has done more on highlighting racism in what 9 months, than kick if out did in how many years? I'd also challenge people who boo it or don't support taking the knee to come up with actual realistic suggestions about what we can do to highlight and stop racism. It's nice that we sit here behind our laptops moaning about it (when does it really have an effect on your life?), but don't bother suggesting genuine improvements. I get the feeling most (not aimed at anyone specifically FWIW) would rather go back to someone else wearing a tshirt so they can 'support' that, and thats their anti-racism supporting done for the year. |
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Post by Gassy on Jun 7, 2021 20:57:17 GMT
Couldn't decide which thread to post this in.  |
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