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Post by oldie on Nov 3, 2022 17:16:28 GMT
I understand that you think it is OK for you to name call others for name calling. Calling someone a liar isn’t name calling. Calling someone a “Tory tw*t” is name calling. Big difference. Who is the liar? |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 3, 2022 17:17:37 GMT
that doesn't make monetary policy correct though when I said normal, I did mean 'normal' in so much as having an interest rate of some significance be it 2% or 5% as opposed to basically not having one at all 0.25%. I know why the interest rate is going up, but that doesn't mean 1) it's the correct thing to do or 2) will make any difference at all given where the inflationary pressures are coming from As I say due to how inflation is calculated, it is almost guaranteed to go down next year. prices aren't going to go down obviously but the increases will have settled in as the production/supply costs will be factored in (unless you think prices will keep rising) therefore sucking more money out of the economy is only going to make any recession worse The BofE are expecting inflation to be 5% by this time next year and 1.4% a year after. Costs will still be going up but not as fast. That will help Stuart ,the real underlying problem is we have had a low growth economy for many years,low growth equals reduced tax take and lower wages in real terms which equals underfunded Public Services. We need to find the key to get growth over 2.5% |
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 3, 2022 17:21:01 GMT
So bloody arrogant and up his own arse but totally without the self awareness to realise 😂 Whatever the impression he gives, personally I would like to hear his arguments. Then we can refute them with evidence and facts. You’re welcome to. That’s what I would prefer. I’m often wrong about things, like everyone else. I’ll happily change my mind. What I’m not interested in is yah-booh juvenile nonsense. The only topics I could be perceived arrogant on are those on which I know I am fairly well versed in. I feel a little bit like a doctor speaking to someone saying “mate! You stupid d***, hemp cures everything bro (posts article from some webpage as proof) |
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Post by oldie on Nov 3, 2022 17:21:48 GMT
The BofE are expecting inflation to be 5% by this time next year and 1.4% a year after. Costs will still be going up but not as fast. That will help Stuart ,the real underlying problem is we have had a low growth economy for many years,low growth equals reduced tax take and lower wages in real terms which equals underfunded Public Services. We need to find the key to get growth over 2.5% Capital investment. |
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Post by oldie on Nov 3, 2022 17:24:13 GMT
Whatever the impression he gives, personally I would like to hear his arguments. Then we can refute them with evidence and facts. You’re welcome to. That’s what I would prefer. I’m often wrong about things, like everyone else. I’ll happily change my mind. What I’m not interested in is yah-booh juvenile nonsense. The only topics I could be perceived arrogant on are those on which I know I am fairly well versed in. I feel a little bit like a doctor speaking to someone saying “mate! You stupid d***, hemp cures everything bro (posts article from some webpage as proof) Ok Which topics do you feel most comfortable with (well versed as you put it)? |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 3, 2022 17:33:30 GMT
That will help Stuart ,the real underlying problem is we have had a low growth economy for many years,low growth equals reduced tax take and lower wages in real terms which equals underfunded Public Services. We need to find the key to get growth over 2.5% Capital investment. Absolutely |
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 3, 2022 17:43:44 GMT
You’re welcome to. That’s what I would prefer. I’m often wrong about things, like everyone else. I’ll happily change my mind. What I’m not interested in is yah-booh juvenile nonsense. The only topics I could be perceived arrogant on are those on which I know I am fairly well versed in. I feel a little bit like a doctor speaking to someone saying “mate! You stupid d***, hemp cures everything bro (posts article from some webpage as proof) Ok Which topics do you feel most comfortable with (well versed as you put it)? Economics/investments. The thing is, the fact that now this is going to descend where I state an opinion, the however many of you trawl your friendly news sources to discredit this, just kind of lends this part of the forum to being basically a hostile space for anyone who isn’t a remainer, or a labour voter. This is kind of what I’m addressing. I think people forget that tories, or whomever you disagree with, are human beings with their own values, and their own beliefs and they’ve got to them not due to (predictable suggestion) reading the daily Mail, or being “led astray” but they just have different values to you, and they are not to be demonised or slandered. I don’t agree with socialism or left wing ideas in the main but I don’t assume everyone who does is stupid and to be insulted. I do find this a curious trait generally of the left. The right of centre think they’re right, the left seem to believe they KNOW they’re right, and it’s not about opinion, it’s about moral right or wrong, and that tories have chosen to be morally reprehensible. This then enables whatever abuse, insults and gang banging. As a whole, I do see the right mocking the left as “snowflakes” or “loonies” but I don’t think 4 tories would be quite as vitriolic towards a stray leftie as is evidenced here. I’ve voted for labour and the tories in my lifetime, and I was once a revolutionary socialist so I know these positions well. Ultimately I’m pragmatic about things so while I sympathise with the ideas of fairness, and better public services, and more money to the poor, there are some fundamental, long established problems with quick win solutions or simple ideas like “get the tories out and problem solved”. It’s really, really hard to do. Ask yourself, have labour ever solved them? Has anyone? Hence if I come off a bit arrogant on certain points it’s because I’ve thought about them for a long time very carefully and It’s quite difficult to not be candid in response because simplistic solutions to complex problems don’t work. |
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 3, 2022 17:46:17 GMT
That will help Stuart ,the real underlying problem is we have had a low growth economy for many years,low growth equals reduced tax take and lower wages in real terms which equals underfunded Public Services. We need to find the key to get growth over 2.5% Capital investment. We can start on this one maybe? Where would you get the capital? Borrow or tax? |
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Post by yattongas on Nov 3, 2022 17:48:13 GMT
Who remembers this absolute clown 🤡? 😂👍 gulfofaden Avatar Oct 25, 2021 7:43:45 GMT gulfofaden said: Wages rising for the poorest. Growth predicted to be faster than eurozone to 2025. There never was an argument in economic terms to stay. Paying to be a member of a club with which we have a large trade deficit makes no sense. Demand in an open market economy leaks to import market but is offset by exports. If it’s negative in terms of net demand, then it’s not a beneficial relationship. Most EU imports are substitutable. We can quite happily buy Jags instead of beamers. The city of London isn’t substitutable, it’s 2nd in terms of global competitiveness compared to Europe’s best shot which is Frankfurt at 17th and Amsterdam at 23rd. The idea that an Asian businessman, who speaks English, studied at Oxford and knows English contract law is going to delist in London and learn French law is laughable. There’s a hell of a lot of anecdotal evidence on this thread, but if any of you have an economics degree and a 20 year career in asset management (most of which is discussing macro economics) then I’m all ears, but I’d prefer not to hear about blue passports and “hating foreigners”. Few brexit advocates hate foreigners, but they can see what a mobile European workforce has done to wages in this country. If you’re a business owner which wants cheap labour, then you will naturally be against, and they are the people who spoon feed you the sound bites. If your heart is with the working public (and bizzarely given my background, it is) then you will see things such as staff shortages as a good thing, as, within reason, these are the things which help the lot of the common person. Would you like me to explain it in terms you can understand? Please do , but no long words . |
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Post by aghast on Nov 3, 2022 17:51:59 GMT
Who remembers this absolute clown 🤡? 😂👍 gulfofaden Avatar Oct 25, 2021 7:43:45 GMT gulfofaden said: Wages rising for the poorest. Growth predicted to be faster than eurozone to 2025. There never was an argument in economic terms to stay. Paying to be a member of a club with which we have a large trade deficit makes no sense. Demand in an open market economy leaks to import market but is offset by exports. If it’s negative in terms of net demand, then it’s not a beneficial relationship. Most EU imports are substitutable. We can quite happily buy Jags instead of beamers. The city of London isn’t substitutable, it’s 2nd in terms of global competitiveness compared to Europe’s best shot which is Frankfurt at 17th and Amsterdam at 23rd. The idea that an Asian businessman, who speaks English, studied at Oxford and knows English contract law is going to delist in London and learn French law is laughable. There’s a hell of a lot of anecdotal evidence on this thread, but if any of you have an economics degree and a 20 year career in asset management (most of which is discussing macro economics) then I’m all ears, but I’d prefer not to hear about blue passports and “hating foreigners”. Few brexit advocates hate foreigners, but they can see what a mobile European workforce has done to wages in this country. If you’re a business owner which wants cheap labour, then you will naturally be against, and they are the people who spoon feed you the sound bites. If your heart is with the working public (and bizzarely given my background, it is) then you will see things such as staff shortages as a good thing, as, within reason, these are the things which help the lot of the common person. Would you like me to explain it in terms you can understand? It's a bit cringey to trumpet your qualifications and job as a justification for knowing better than mere pleb posters, especially when you know nothing about them, and considering many of the UK's finest libertarian economists never foresaw the clusterf*ck known as Brexit. |
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Post by warehamgas on Nov 3, 2022 18:22:24 GMT
UK national debt has more than doubled from 1 Trillion to over 2 Trillion since 2010 ( Tories take power 🙄) . All public services have been absolutely decimated. Spend more to get far far less ! . Yet still the right wing voting loons have the brass neck to say the left are wasteful and can’t be trusted with the economy. It’s not that they can’t be trusted, it’s that they don’t understand it. As you clearly don’t. You’re also can’t have a conversation on politics without getting obnoxious and antagonistic. Seek to understand, then to be understood. The way you approach these discussions is extremely childish, and that goes for most of the others on here. Bullies, essentially. Which is one of the reasons you shouldn’t ever be allowed to run things, you have all the answers for questions you don’t understand. Now I know why I rarely come on here to post! To be called childish and a bully. Wonderful!! Your awareness of engaging with other who have views different from yours is poor. You complain about name calling then proceed to name call. And I really tried! From what you’ve posted it looks like you treat many situations as a “paper exercise”, not just austerity. I’m surprised because I’m sure you’re aware that working with people, having empathy, listening to them, working in a team and seeking to change the views of others requires a skill set that you seem to struggle with. It seems perhaps you don’t work with people. And before you say I know nothing about you, you’re right I don’t but all I can do, and all anyone else can do, is read what you post and how you respond to others especially when they have different opinions. I suspect you like saying things to see the effect on others, winding them up in other words. And of course succeeding. 😉 |
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Post by oldie on Nov 3, 2022 18:26:27 GMT
We can start on this one maybe? Where would you get the capital? Borrow or tax? Ok. In an ideal world we would see an equal mount of private sector capital investment into wealth creating commercial enterprise and an equal value of public sector investment into public services. But it's not an ideal world. Therefore the public sector has to step into the space increasingly vacated by the private sector which is faced with recession. We cannot tax the private sector enough to do that, especially when demand is shrinking, so we have to borrow. As I said above, the policies since 2010 plus Covid has not left us in the best position to do this. But do it we must. If that works and the recession is curtailed then that "should" promote to invest to take advantage of rising demand. |
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Post by trevorgas on Nov 3, 2022 18:48:59 GMT
We can start on this one maybe? Where would you get the capital? Borrow or tax? Ok. In an ideal world we would see an equal mount of private sector capital investment into wealth creating commercial enterprise and an equal value of public sector investment into public services. But it's not an ideal world. Therefore the public sector has to step into the space increasingly vacated by the private sector which is faced with recession. We cannot tax the private sector enough to do that, especially when demand is shrinking, so we have to borrow. As I said above, the policies since 2010 plus Covid has not left us in the best position to do this. But do it we must. If that works and the recession is curtailed then that "should" promote to invest to take advantage of rising demand. Absolutely right Les,I would add one thing, politicians have to be brave and bring forward capital investment projects to stimulate the economy,how about additional tax incentives for the private sector to invest? |
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 3, 2022 18:52:57 GMT
It’s not that they can’t be trusted, it’s that they don’t understand it. As you clearly don’t. You’re also can’t have a conversation on politics without getting obnoxious and antagonistic. Seek to understand, then to be understood. The way you approach these discussions is extremely childish, and that goes for most of the others on here. Bullies, essentially. Which is one of the reasons you shouldn’t ever be allowed to run things, you have all the answers for questions you don’t understand. Now I know why I rarely come on here to post! To be called childish and a bully. Wonderful!! Your awareness of engaging with other who have views different from yours is poor. You complain about name calling then proceed to name call. And I really tried! From what you’ve posted it looks like you treat many situations as a “paper exercise”, not just austerity. I’m surprised because I’m sure you’re aware that working with people, having empathy, listening to them, working in a team and seeking to change the views of others requires a skill set that you seem to struggle with. It seems perhaps you don’t work with people. And before you say I know nothing about you, you’re right I don’t but all I can do, and all anyone else can do, is read what you post and how you respond to others especially when they have different opinions. I suspect you like saying things to see the effect on others, winding them up in other words. And of course succeeding. 😉 I’m actually not trying to wind anyone up. I have a hard job relating to what you and several others have said. Essentially, it’s not a paper exercise and one should have empathy etc. To me that’s meaningless waffle. Of course, we want to help the poor, build a better world but HOW? If you want better services, how do you fund it? If you want X group to get Y, who pays for Y? Anyone can say a few buzz words and get applause. At some point you have to balance the books. It seems it’s not actually about solving issues. It’s moral auditing. You don’t seem to say the same thing about Yatton who has been incredibly provocative, bigoted and obnoxious. I suppose “it’s OK when we do it”. This entire thread is basically about 5 of you, emboldened by your anonymity and numbers, being incredibly rude and condescending. When someone stands their ground, your all up in arms about it. Just read back through this page. It is not me, nor anyone outside of the axis of weasel coming here and being disrespectful. I wasn’t - read through. I posted something with no insults and the usual “tories tories tories barrage came in”. I’ve not called anyone a tw@t. Saying someone is obnoxious and childish is not the same as calling them a “tw@t”. It’s been conflated several times, I can only conclude you don’t do detail (quel surprise for left wingers!) or this is just going down the same route as many before when it’s win at all costs. I exclude oldie from this because he had the decency to put a line under what’s happened and come to the table like a grown up. Wisdom doesn’t always come with age but I think that’s the case here. |
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Post by yattongas on Nov 3, 2022 19:19:34 GMT
Now I know why I rarely come on here to post! To be called childish and a bully. Wonderful!! Your awareness of engaging with other who have views different from yours is poor. You complain about name calling then proceed to name call. And I really tried! From what you’ve posted it looks like you treat many situations as a “paper exercise”, not just austerity. I’m surprised because I’m sure you’re aware that working with people, having empathy, listening to them, working in a team and seeking to change the views of others requires a skill set that you seem to struggle with. It seems perhaps you don’t work with people. And before you say I know nothing about you, you’re right I don’t but all I can do, and all anyone else can do, is read what you post and how you respond to others especially when they have different opinions. I suspect you like saying things to see the effect on others, winding them up in other words. And of course succeeding. 😉 I’m actually not trying to wind anyone up. I have a hard job relating to what you and several others have said. Essentially, it’s not a paper exercise and one should have empathy etc. To me that’s meaningless waffle. Of course, we want to help the poor, build a better world but HOW? If you want better services, how do you fund it? If you want X group to get Y, who pays for Y? Anyone can say a few buzz words and get applause. At some point you have to balance the books. It seems it’s not actually about solving issues. It’s moral auditing. You don’t seem to say the same thing about Yatton who has been incredibly provocative, bigoted and obnoxious. I suppose “it’s OK when we do it”. This entire thread is basically about 5 of you, emboldened by your anonymity and numbers, being incredibly rude and condescending. When someone stands their ground, your all up in arms about it. Just read back through this page. It is not me, nor anyone outside of the axis of weasel coming here and being disrespectful. I wasn’t - read through. I posted something with no insults and the usual “tories tories tories barrage came in”. I’ve not called anyone a tw@t. Saying someone is obnoxious and childish is not the same as calling them a “tw@t”. It’s been conflated several times, I can only conclude you don’t do detail (quel surprise for left wingers!) or this is just going down the same route as many before when it’s win at all costs. I exclude oldie from this because he had the decency to put a line under what’s happened and come to the table like a grown up. Wisdom doesn’t always come with age but I think that’s the case here. You were incredibly obnoxious and talked down to people from your very first post in this section. So don’t get on your moral high horse . Thinking you know more than anyone else ( you might well do ? ) . Come with a little humility and you would get a bit more respect . |
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Post by fintanstack on Nov 3, 2022 19:35:26 GMT
Now I know why I rarely come on here to post! To be called childish and a bully. Wonderful!! Your awareness of engaging with other who have views different from yours is poor. You complain about name calling then proceed to name call. And I really tried! From what you’ve posted it looks like you treat many situations as a “paper exercise”, not just austerity. I’m surprised because I’m sure you’re aware that working with people, having empathy, listening to them, working in a team and seeking to change the views of others requires a skill set that you seem to struggle with. It seems perhaps you don’t work with people. And before you say I know nothing about you, you’re right I don’t but all I can do, and all anyone else can do, is read what you post and how you respond to others especially when they have different opinions. I suspect you like saying things to see the effect on others, winding them up in other words. And of course succeeding. 😉 I’m actually not trying to wind anyone up. I have a hard job relating to what you and several others have said. Essentially, it’s not a paper exercise and one should have empathy etc. To me that’s meaningless waffle. Of course, we want to help the poor, build a better world but HOW? If you want better services, how do you fund it? If you want X group to get Y, who pays for Y? Anyone can say a few buzz words and get applause. At some point you have to balance the books. It seems it’s not actually about solving issues. It’s moral auditing. You don’t seem to say the same thing about Yatton who has been incredibly provocative, bigoted and obnoxious. I suppose “it’s OK when we do it”. This entire thread is basically about 5 of you, emboldened by your anonymity and numbers, being incredibly rude and condescending. When someone stands their ground, your all up in arms about it. Just read back through this page. It is not me, nor anyone outside of the axis of weasel coming here and being disrespectful. I wasn’t - read through. I posted something with no insults and the usual “tories tories tories barrage came in”. I’ve not called anyone a tw@t. Saying someone is obnoxious and childish is not the same as calling them a “tw@t”. It’s been conflated several times, I can only conclude you don’t do detail (quel surprise for left wingers!) or this is just going down the same route as many before when it’s win at all costs. I exclude oldie from this because he had the decency to put a line under what’s happened and come to the table like a grown up. Wisdom doesn’t always come with age but I think that’s the case here. You missed the point again. I called you out because you put yourself on a very high pedestal, then proceed to behave like those you seem to think you are superior to. Most of us are bullies and/or liars? Had you come on and debated well, poorly or even just called Yattongas a twat, that would have been just fine. But you have not come to the table like a grown up. You have come as a morally superior being to us childish, obnoxious, bullies. And then behaved childishly. And obnoxiously. |
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Post by yattongas on Nov 3, 2022 20:30:32 GMT
I’m actually not trying to wind anyone up. I have a hard job relating to what you and several others have said. Essentially, it’s not a paper exercise and one should have empathy etc. To me that’s meaningless waffle. Of course, we want to help the poor, build a better world but HOW? If you want better services, how do you fund it? If you want X group to get Y, who pays for Y? Anyone can say a few buzz words and get applause. At some point you have to balance the books. It seems it’s not actually about solving issues. It’s moral auditing. You don’t seem to say the same thing about Yatton who has been incredibly provocative, bigoted and obnoxious. I suppose “it’s OK when we do it”. This entire thread is basically about 5 of you, emboldened by your anonymity and numbers, being incredibly rude and condescending. When someone stands their ground, your all up in arms about it. Just read back through this page. It is not me, nor anyone outside of the axis of weasel coming here and being disrespectful. I wasn’t - read through. I posted something with no insults and the usual “tories tories tories barrage came in”. I’ve not called anyone a tw@t. Saying someone is obnoxious and childish is not the same as calling them a “tw@t”. It’s been conflated several times, I can only conclude you don’t do detail (quel surprise for left wingers!) or this is just going down the same route as many before when it’s win at all costs. I exclude oldie from this because he had the decency to put a line under what’s happened and come to the table like a grown up. Wisdom doesn’t always come with age but I think that’s the case here. You missed the point again. I called you out because you put yourself on a very high pedestal, then proceed to behave like those you seem to think you are superior to. Most of us are bullies and/or liars? Had you come on and debated well, poorly or even just called Yattongas a twat, that would have been just fine. But you have not come to the table like a grown up. You have come as a morally superior being to us childish, obnoxious, bullies. And then behaved childishly. And obnoxiously. cheers Fin ! 😂 ‘or even just called Yattongas a twat, that would have been just fine.’ |
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Post by oldie on Nov 3, 2022 20:34:59 GMT
Ok. In an ideal world we would see an equal mount of private sector capital investment into wealth creating commercial enterprise and an equal value of public sector investment into public services. But it's not an ideal world. Therefore the public sector has to step into the space increasingly vacated by the private sector which is faced with recession. We cannot tax the private sector enough to do that, especially when demand is shrinking, so we have to borrow. As I said above, the policies since 2010 plus Covid has not left us in the best position to do this. But do it we must. If that works and the recession is curtailed then that "should" promote to invest to take advantage of rising demand. Absolutely right Les,I would add one thing, politicians have to be brave and bring forward capital investment projects to stimulate the economy,how about additional tax incentives for the private sector to invest? Yes. Did anyone mention advanced capital allowances? |
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 3, 2022 20:36:14 GMT
We can start on this one maybe? Where would you get the capital? Borrow or tax? Ok. In an ideal world we would see an equal mount of private sector capital investment into wealth creating commercial enterprise and an equal value of public sector investment into public services. But it's not an ideal world. Therefore the public sector has to step into the space increasingly vacated by the private sector which is faced with recession. We cannot tax the private sector enough to do that, especially when demand is shrinking, so we have to borrow. As I said above, the policies since 2010 plus Covid has not left us in the best position to do this. But do it we must. If that works and the recession is curtailed then that "should" promote to invest to take advantage of rising demand. We saw recently what unfunded borrowing will do at this point to the £ and to the sovereign debt markets. I think the net cost was about £40BN. So unfunded borrowing at this level will tank a lot of the above. There is one way we could get some more capital. Encourage multinationals to list in London. This might involve things like a corporation tax cut or perhaps even a bonus cap being removed. The bonus cap is a strange one to be opposed because A/ they just pay them higher basic salary as they do currently and B/ capping bonus just means the profit theoretically remains on the balance sheet. It doesn’t get paid to lower paid staff, it goes to the shareholders. Of that budget, the Ctax cut and the bonus cap scrapping actually made sense. London is extremely competitive for banking, and banking pays for the NHS. London props this country up. If we look at this on the surface. Large businesses pay less tax and bankers earn more: to the public, this is an outrage. The reality of it is that we have no divine right to have Rio, Astra et Al to list in London. Lots of countries out there will happily have them. We can’t borrow any more essentially, we have hit the limit. The other thing to feel more positive about is much of the sell off is partly due to asset managers itching to dump risk and a limp from any country gets them hovering over their sell trades. I don’t believe that budget would have been received so poorly had we not had a very bearish market. I agree in principle that now would be the time to borrow, but the fact is we have done this for too long. Having to fund everything is going to create a very hostile political sphere. It’s actually a good thing. If you want a tax cut, the result on public spending will hurt you at the GPs. If you want more NHS funding; you actually have to pay for it. People will see what things cost and the lack of magic bullets, cost, comparison and compromise. I don’t have any answers. I would have said cut Ctax but here we are. Recessions happen. The world doesn’t end. Human history is filled with ruined harvests and plagues. In the long run, borrowing our way out every time will not work because no government will ever run a surplus. One of the issues with democracy: everyone concentrates on the next 5 years only. |
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Post by gulfofaden on Nov 3, 2022 20:42:39 GMT
Ok. In an ideal world we would see an equal mount of private sector capital investment into wealth creating commercial enterprise and an equal value of public sector investment into public services. But it's not an ideal world. Therefore the public sector has to step into the space increasingly vacated by the private sector which is faced with recession. We cannot tax the private sector enough to do that, especially when demand is shrinking, so we have to borrow. As I said above, the policies since 2010 plus Covid has not left us in the best position to do this. But do it we must. If that works and the recession is curtailed then that "should" promote to invest to take advantage of rising demand. Absolutely right Les,I would add one thing, politicians have to be brave and bring forward capital investment projects to stimulate the economy,how about additional tax incentives for the private sector to invest? Very hard to do this with rates at their current level. A risk free rate of 3-5% means with risk premium, return on capital employed get tougher. The cure for all of this is lower inflation and therefore rates. I said in a previous post there is no magic bullet but sorting out the war in Ukraine would be as close to a magic bullet. This recession is almost entirely caused by it. |
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