George Floyd - America so f**ked up

[Gastafari]

So the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities report has found that concerns the UK is institutionally racist are not borne out by the evidence.

Also

"The Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, set up after Black Lives Matter protests, found social class and family structure had a bigger impact on how people's lives turned out."

Surprise, surprise.

As ever, facts and evidence will quash victimhood and false narratives.

So, yes Racism exists, in all corners of the globe, unfortunately.

But "Systemic" or "Institutional" racism in the UK, just like the US, is a modern day, myth.

But of course, race sells so turning everything into a racial issue will create headlines and push people towards certain narratives.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-56585538

[oldie]

Mar 31, 2021 8:59:50 GMT Gastafari said:

So the Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities report has found that concerns the UK is institutionally racist are not borne out by the evidence.

Also

"The Commission on Race and Ethnic Disparities, set up after Black Lives Matter protests, found social class and family structure had a bigger impact on how people's lives turned out."

Surprise, surprise.

As ever, facts and evidence will quash victimhood and false narratives.

So, yes Racism exists, in all corners of the globe, unfortunately.

But "Systemic" or "Institutional" racism in the UK, just like the US, is a modern day, myth.

But of course, race sells so turning everything into a racial issue will create headlines and push people towards certain narratives.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-56585538

Would like to read the report before I accept (and comment on it in detail) it's conclusion.
Have you read it Gastafari?

From the headline, something we all know, (perhaps) is the shocking level educational attainment within some of the defined groups. That is White "working class" and afro Carribbean kids.

Why is that?

[oldie]

From the round of interviews this morning.

"On the Today programme, Matthew Ryder QC, a former deputy mayor of London and a lawyer who represented the family of Stephen Lawrence, highlighted 2019 research from the University of Aberdeen which found that even when white working-class boys had lower educational qualifications and a lower likelihood of going to university, they had higher employment rates and higher social mobility than working-class people of ethnic minority backgrounds. “That doesn’t suggest racism has been removed from the system,” he said."

What I didnt realise until just now is that the Government have not released the full text of the report, just this favourable headline.
Ahem.

[Deleted]

Mar 31, 2021 9:41:40 GMT oldie said:

From the round of interviews this morning.

"On the Today programme, Matthew Ryder QC, a former deputy mayor of London and a lawyer who represented the family of Stephen Lawrence, highlighted 2019 research from the University of Aberdeen which found that even when white working-class boys had lower educational qualifications and a lower likelihood of going to university, they had higher employment rates and higher social mobility than working-class people of ethnic minority backgrounds. “That doesn’t suggest racism has been removed from the system,” he said."

What I didnt realise until just now is that the Government have not released the full text of the report, just this favourable headline.
Ahem.

I'd even believe the UN report over the Tory one...

www.ohchr.org/en/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=24698&LangID=E

[Gassy]

Will wait for the final report and when I get the chance to read the full report on bbc later - but general consensus is that I don’t tend to trust internal reports that much, if it was independent then it would give much more weight.

And that goes for any party btw, not just Tory.

[oldie]

Mar 31, 2021 10:09:03 GMT Gassy said:

Will wait for the final report and when I get the chance to read the full report on bbc later - but general consensus is that I don’t tend to trust internal reports that much, if it was independent then it would give much more weight.

And that goes for any party btw, not just Tory.

Yeah, like Cameron lobbying for taxpayer funding for his Aussie banker buddy, Greensill. Now bankrupt. Cleared I believe of doing nothing wrong.🤔🤔🤔

[Gassy]

Mar 31, 2021 10:41:57 GMT oldie said:

Mar 31, 2021 10:09:03 GMT Gassy said:

Will wait for the final report and when I get the chance to read the full report on bbc later - but general consensus is that I don’t tend to trust internal reports that much, if it was independent then it would give much more weight.

And that goes for any party btw, not just Tory.

Yeah, like Cameron lobbying for taxpayer funding for his Aussie banker buddy, Greensill. Now bankrupt. Cleared I believe of doing nothing wrong.🤔🤔🤔

And then don’t forget that there are multiple reports. The NHS did an internal report in institutional racism and found there was. Now the tories did one that covers the entire UK (is that even possible?) and they’re saying there isn’t.

So who is more accurate?

[oldie]

Mar 31, 2021 10:52:00 GMT Gassy said:

Mar 31, 2021 10:41:57 GMT oldie said:

Yeah, like Cameron lobbying for taxpayer funding for his Aussie banker buddy, Greensill. Now bankrupt. Cleared I believe of doing nothing wrong.🤔🤔🤔

And then don’t forget that there are multiple reports. The NHS did an internal report in institutional racism and found there was. Now the tories did one that covers the entire UK (is that even possible?) and they’re saying there isn’t.

So who is more accurate?

Yep.
Go figure.

[Gastafari]

Mar 31, 2021 9:41:40 GMT oldie said:

From the round of interviews this morning.

"On the Today programme, Matthew Ryder QC, a former deputy mayor of London and a lawyer who represented the family of Stephen Lawrence, highlighted 2019 research from the University of Aberdeen which found that even when white working-class boys had lower educational qualifications and a lower likelihood of going to university, they had higher employment rates and higher social mobility than working-class people of ethnic minority backgrounds. “That doesn’t suggest racism has been removed from the system,” he said."

What I didnt realise until just now is that the Government have not released the full text of the report, just this favourable headline.
Ahem.

Some of the other things highlighted:

'Children from ethnic communities did as well or better than white pupils in compulsory education, with black Caribbean pupils the only group to perform less well'

'The pay gap between all ethnic minorities and the white majority population had shrunk to 2.3% overall and was barely significant for employees under 30'

That doesn't scream of institutional racism or'White privilege' which people feel so guilty of, when they have no need to be.

Yes, pupils from Caribbean backgrounds perform less well, but that just may well be a 'Culture' issue and nothing to do with race. Having gone to arguably the most racially diverse school in Bristol, Fairfield where 80% of the school were "Non White", I know first hand what it was like. The headteacher, and most of the teachers were also "Non White", the kids from Caribbean backgrounds were always the most disobedient and troublesome. It's not racism, it's just a fact.

[Gassy]

Mar 31, 2021 11:28:35 GMT Gastafari said:

Mar 31, 2021 9:41:40 GMT oldie said:

From the round of interviews this morning.

"On the Today programme, Matthew Ryder QC, a former deputy mayor of London and a lawyer who represented the family of Stephen Lawrence, highlighted 2019 research from the University of Aberdeen which found that even when white working-class boys had lower educational qualifications and a lower likelihood of going to university, they had higher employment rates and higher social mobility than working-class people of ethnic minority backgrounds. “That doesn’t suggest racism has been removed from the system,” he said."

What I didnt realise until just now is that the Government have not released the full text of the report, just this favourable headline.
Ahem.

Some of the other things highlighted:

'Children from ethnic communities did as well or better than white pupils in compulsory education, with black Caribbean pupils the only group to perform less well'

'The pay gap between all ethnic minorities and the white majority population had shrunk to 2.3% overall and was barely significant for employees under 30'

That doesn't scream of institutional racism or'White privilege' which people feel so guilty of, when they have no need to be.

Yes, pupils from Caribbean backgrounds perform less well, but that just may well be a 'Culture' issue and nothing to do with race. Having gone to arguably the most racially diverse school in Bristol, Fairfield where 80% of the school were "Non White", I know first hand what it was like. The headteacher, and most of the teachers were also "Non White", the kids from Caribbean backgrounds were always the most disobedient and troublesome. It's not racism, it's just a fact.

Your last example is a poor one, IMO. If 80% were non white than it is statistically likely that the non-white kids would be the most disobedient and troublesome.

The school I went to was probably 90% white and guess what - all the disobedient and troublesome kids were white.

[oldie]

Mar 31, 2021 11:28:35 GMT Gastafari said:

Mar 31, 2021 9:41:40 GMT oldie said:

From the round of interviews this morning.

"On the Today programme, Matthew Ryder QC, a former deputy mayor of London and a lawyer who represented the family of Stephen Lawrence, highlighted 2019 research from the University of Aberdeen which found that even when white working-class boys had lower educational qualifications and a lower likelihood of going to university, they had higher employment rates and higher social mobility than working-class people of ethnic minority backgrounds. “That doesn’t suggest racism has been removed from the system,” he said."

What I didnt realise until just now is that the Government have not released the full text of the report, just this favourable headline.
Ahem.

Some of the other things highlighted:

'Children from ethnic communities did as well or better than white pupils in compulsory education, with black Caribbean pupils the only group to perform less well'

'The pay gap between all ethnic minorities and the white majority population had shrunk to 2.3% overall and was barely significant for employees under 30'

That doesn't scream of institutional racism or'White privilege' which people feel so guilty of, when they have no need to be.

Yes, pupils from Caribbean backgrounds perform less well, but that just may well be a 'Culture' issue and nothing to do with race. Having gone to arguably the most racially diverse school in Bristol, Fairfield where 80% of the school were "Non White", I know first hand what it was like. The headteacher, and most of the teachers were also "Non White", the kids from Caribbean backgrounds were always the most disobedient and troublesome. It's not racism, it's just a fact.

Different era,
But at my post 11 plus schooling in Bristol there were only 4 "black" kids in any year upto 16 and only one who went on to the 6th form.
Kids who passed the 11 plus were streamed into A and B classes and every else down to to F.
So about 60 kids into A/B for each year upto 16.

Looking back the education was appalling below C. My year had a reunion in 2002. The degree of social mobility amongst the guys I grew up with was shocking.

So yes then the educational establishment gave up on you from about 14. That attitude transcends race...but I do wonder if race is not a factor in lack of attainment today.

Another topic perhaps.

[oldie]

Mar 31, 2021 11:43:01 GMT Gassy said:

Mar 31, 2021 11:28:35 GMT Gastafari said:

Some of the other things highlighted:

'Children from ethnic communities did as well or better than white pupils in compulsory education, with black Caribbean pupils the only group to perform less well'

'The pay gap between all ethnic minorities and the white majority population had shrunk to 2.3% overall and was barely significant for employees under 30'

That doesn't scream of institutional racism or'White privilege' which people feel so guilty of, when they have no need to be.

Yes, pupils from Caribbean backgrounds perform less well, but that just may well be a 'Culture' issue and nothing to do with race. Having gone to arguably the most racially diverse school in Bristol, Fairfield where 80% of the school were "Non White", I know first hand what it was like. The headteacher, and most of the teachers were also "Non White", the kids from Caribbean backgrounds were always the most disobedient and troublesome. It's not racism, it's just a fact.

Your last example is a poor one, IMO. If 80% were non white than it is statistically likely that the non-white kids would be the most disobedient and troublesome.

The school I went to was probably 90% white and guess what - all the disobedient and troublesome kids were white.

To be fair to Gastafari, I think he is breaking it down between Caribbean and non Caribbean backgrounds.

Which prompts a question about the lasting impact of slavery.

[Gastafari]

Mar 31, 2021 11:43:01 GMT Gassy said:

Mar 31, 2021 11:28:35 GMT Gastafari said:

Some of the other things highlighted:

'Children from ethnic communities did as well or better than white pupils in compulsory education, with black Caribbean pupils the only group to perform less well'

'The pay gap between all ethnic minorities and the white majority population had shrunk to 2.3% overall and was barely significant for employees under 30'

That doesn't scream of institutional racism or'White privilege' which people feel so guilty of, when they have no need to be.

Yes, pupils from Caribbean backgrounds perform less well, but that just may well be a 'Culture' issue and nothing to do with race. Having gone to arguably the most racially diverse school in Bristol, Fairfield where 80% of the school were "Non White", I know first hand what it was like. The headteacher, and most of the teachers were also "Non White", the kids from Caribbean backgrounds were always the most disobedient and troublesome. It's not racism, it's just a fact.

Your last example is a poor one, IMO. If 80% were non white than it is statistically likely that the non-white kids would be the most disobedient and troublesome.

The school I went to was probably 90% white and guess what - all the disobedient and troublesome kids were white.

No it isn't.

Out of the 80%, there were a whole host of different backgrounds, Caribbean, Nigerian, Somalian, Indian, Pakistani, Chinese etc, plus Mixed Race pupils as well.

Of the 20% that were 'White', again there were Polish, Albanian and others.

The school was slap bang in Montpellier and the majority of pupils came from St Pauls, St Werburghs and Easton.

The kids from Caribbean backgrounds statiscally were the ones getting expelled, suspended and the ones getting into the most trouble.

Again, nothing to do with race, more to do with 'Culture'.

[Gastafari]

Mar 31, 2021 11:52:16 GMT oldie said:

Mar 31, 2021 11:43:01 GMT Gassy said:

Your last example is a poor one, IMO. If 80% were non white than it is statistically likely that the non-white kids would be the most disobedient and troublesome.

The school I went to was probably 90% white and guess what - all the disobedient and troublesome kids were white.

To be fair to Gastafari, I think he is breaking it down between Caribbean and non Caribbean backgrounds.

Which prompts a question about the lasting impact of slavery.

I don't think the lasting impact of Slavery has anything to do with it.

Especially in the US, if that was the case(Which I've brought up on this thread previously), then why were Blacks better of economically, had better family structures, and the housing projects weren't full of murder & Crime 100 years after slavery? While also living in the Jim Crow era as well until the middle part of the 20th Century.

I know you didn't want to entertain it but the Welfare State and the 'War on Poverty' brought in by Lyndon Johnson has a lot to answer for.

Blacks in The UK, have never been slaves.

[Gassy]

Mar 31, 2021 11:52:32 GMT Gastafari said:

Mar 31, 2021 11:43:01 GMT Gassy said:

Your last example is a poor one, IMO. If 80% were non white than it is statistically likely that the non-white kids would be the most disobedient and troublesome.

The school I went to was probably 90% white and guess what - all the disobedient and troublesome kids were white.

No it isn't.

Out of the 80%, there were a whole host of different backgrounds, Caribbean, Nigerian, Somalian, Indian, Pakistani, Chinese etc, plus Mixed Race pupils as well.

Of the 20% that were 'White', again there were Polish, Albanian and others.

The school was slap bang in Montpellier and the majority of pupils came from St Pauls, St Werburghs and Easton.

The kids from Caribbean backgrounds statiscally were the ones getting expelled, suspended and the ones getting into the most trouble.

Again, nothing to do with race, more to do with 'Culture'.

Ah apologies, as per Oldies post I misunderstood the demographics and the point you were making.

I think culture definitely plays a part, as does where you’re from. Where I went to school, the very few African-Caribbean were the best behaved. But tiny samples were using as examples for the entire country.

[oldie]

Mar 31, 2021 12:05:38 GMT Gastafari said:

Mar 31, 2021 11:52:16 GMT oldie said:

To be fair to Gastafari, I think he is breaking it down between Caribbean and non Caribbean backgrounds.

Which prompts a question about the lasting impact of slavery.

I don't think the lasting impact of Slavery has anything to do with it.

Especially in the US, if that was the case(Which I've brought up on this thread previously), then why were Blacks better of economically, had better family structures, and the housing projects weren't full of murder & Crime 100 years after slavery? While also living in the Jim Crow era as well until the middle part of the 20th Century.

I know you didn't want to entertain it but the Welfare State and the 'War on Poverty' brought in by Lyndon Johnson has a lot to answer for.

Blacks in The UK, have never been slaves.

Oh dear.
My grandparents were born in the 1890s. They had Victorian attitudes unsurprisingly. My mother and father were (father) and are (mother) overt racists.

You cannot deny the impact of "learned" experiences down the line.

[Gastafari]

Mar 31, 2021 12:22:17 GMT oldie said:

Mar 31, 2021 12:05:38 GMT Gastafari said:

I don't think the lasting impact of Slavery has anything to do with it.

Especially in the US, if that was the case(Which I've brought up on this thread previously), then why were Blacks better of economically, had better family structures, and the housing projects weren't full of murder & Crime 100 years after slavery? While also living in the Jim Crow era as well until the middle part of the 20th Century.

I know you didn't want to entertain it but the Welfare State and the 'War on Poverty' brought in by Lyndon Johnson has a lot to answer for.

Blacks in The UK, have never been slaves.

Oh dear.
My grandparents were born in the 1890s. They had Victorian attitudes unsurprisingly. My mother and father were (father) and are (mother) overt racists.

You cannot deny the impact of "learned" experiences down the line.

But nobody, certainly me would ever deny that racism exists.

Of course it does, from all corners of the globe.

Attitudes towards race have changed from 130 years ago, they've changed from 30 years ago, let alone 2 centuries.

All im saying is, to suggest that its the impact of slavery, when Blacks in the UK have never been slaves, and in the US evidence tells you that Blacks were fairing better generally, 100 years after slavery whilst also living in Jim Crow laws compared to the last 70 odd years suggests otherwise.

[oldie]

Mar 31, 2021 12:31:50 GMT Gastafari said:

Mar 31, 2021 12:22:17 GMT oldie said:

Oh dear.
My grandparents were born in the 1890s. They had Victorian attitudes unsurprisingly. My mother and father were (father) and are (mother) overt racists.

You cannot deny the impact of "learned" experiences down the line.

But nobody, certainly me would ever deny that racism exists.

Of course it does, from all corners of the globe.

Attitudes towards race have changed from 130 years ago, they've changed from 30 years ago, let alone 2 centuries.

All im saying is, to suggest that its the impact of slavery, when Blacks in the UK have never been slaves, and in the US evidence tells you that Blacks were fairing better generally, 100 years after slavery whilst also living in Jim Crow laws compared to the last 70 odd years suggests otherwise.

On your American quotes, you are being highly selective and I insular if I may so. The racism I experienced in the UK in the 70s and in America in the 80s was horrific.

[Gastafari]

Mar 31, 2021 13:56:05 GMT oldie said:

Mar 31, 2021 12:31:50 GMT Gastafari said:

But nobody, certainly me would ever deny that racism exists.

Of course it does, from all corners of the globe.

Attitudes towards race have changed from 130 years ago, they've changed from 30 years ago, let alone 2 centuries.

All im saying is, to suggest that its the impact of slavery, when Blacks in the UK have never been slaves, and in the US evidence tells you that Blacks were fairing better generally, 100 years after slavery whilst also living in Jim Crow laws compared to the last 70 odd years suggests otherwise.

On your American quotes, you are being highly selective and I insular if I may so. The racism I experienced in the UK in the 70s and in America in the 80s was horrific.

It's not selective.

It's based on evidence.

Again, I haven't said that racism wasn't, hasn't been or still is horrific.

That's not the issue, we all know it still exists, and probably always will, from each and every race, creed, ethnic background and religion.

My point is purely based on the impact or legacy of Slavery as an argument.

Edit: Which is probaly why everybody who uses it as an argument can never back it up, when it's simply put to them, if it really was the case, then why were Blacks generally better of economically, living in nuclear family structures, with far less murder and crime in Black communities, 100 years after slavery, when they actually were oppressed living under Jim Crow law era America. Compared to the modern day and the 60 odd years after Lyndon B Johnsons 'War On Poverty" legislation.

[henry]

Mar 31, 2021 11:52:16 GMT oldie said:

Mar 31, 2021 11:43:01 GMT Gassy said:

Your last example is a poor one, IMO. If 80% were non white than it is statistically likely that the non-white kids would be the most disobedient and troublesome.

The school I went to was probably 90% white and guess what - all the disobedient and troublesome kids were white.

To be fair to Gastafari, I think he is breaking it down between Caribbean and non Caribbean backgrounds.

Which prompts a question about the lasting impact of slavery.

What the hell have you been smoking Oldie?