yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Nov 10, 2023 7:57:53 GMT
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Post by oldie on Nov 10, 2023 16:47:26 GMT
It's all a bit desperate isn't it. |
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Post by gashead79 on Nov 10, 2023 20:29:45 GMT
Not surprising that it eludes you. It's contrary to the perceived consensus, flies in the face of the misinformation crew, and was published in your goto rag. More to come over the next few years🙁 Any questions were silenced and labelled, whilst the gullible (apologies, those with their wits intact) swallowed it whole and begged for seconds. I find it intriguing and fascinating how some mates and others who fell for it, are now very blasé. Wonder what they'll fall for next! |
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Post by oldie on Nov 10, 2023 20:52:18 GMT
Not surprising that it eludes you. It's contrary to the perceived consensus, flies in the face of the misinformation crew, and was published in your goto rag. More to come over the next few years🙁 Any questions were silenced and labelled, whilst the gullible (apologies, those with their wits intact) swallowed it whole and begged for seconds. I find it intriguing and fascinating how some mates and others who fell for it, are now very blasé. Wonder what they'll fall for next! Hopefully not contrived conspiracy theories from those that are unable to accept that others made choices based upon free will. Free will predicated upon what was known at any given time. |
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Nov 10, 2023 21:02:33 GMT
Not surprising that it eludes you. It's contrary to the perceived consensus, flies in the face of the misinformation crew, and was published in your goto rag. More to come over the next few years🙁 Any questions were silenced and labelled, whilst the gullible (apologies, those with their wits intact) swallowed it whole and begged for seconds. I find it intriguing and fascinating how some mates and others who fell for it, are now very blasé. Wonder what they'll fall for next! Again , I thought you preached being nice ? 🙄 My opinion for what it’s worth is you are a complete bloody loon who believes any covid vaccine conspiracy theory going . You provide no evidence ever , just nonsense. Only a few days ago you were saying those that had the jab were going to get cancer. What a whopper you are ! Then tried to deny it and said I was lying and making things up until you got sussed out by Gassy. You’ll just keep saying bad things will happen in the future 🙄 |
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Post by gashead79 on Nov 12, 2023 7:42:05 GMT
Not surprising that it eludes you. It's contrary to the perceived consensus, flies in the face of the misinformation crew, and was published in your goto rag. More to come over the next few years🙁 Any questions were silenced and labelled, whilst the gullible (apologies, those with their wits intact) swallowed it whole and begged for seconds. I find it intriguing and fascinating how some mates and others who fell for it, are now very blasé. Wonder what they'll fall for next! Again , I thought you preached being nice ? 🙄 My opinion for what it’s worth is you are a complete bloody loon who believes any covid vaccine conspiracy theory going . You provide no evidence ever , just nonsense. Only a few days ago you were saying those that had the jab were going to get cancer. What a whopper you are ! Then tried to deny it and said I was lying and making things up until you got sussed out by Gassy. You’ll just keep saying bad things will happen in the future 🙄 Talking of nonsense🙄 How are you so unable to reply directly to any points put to you?! I apologised and corrected my false statement btw. Again, I appreciate that an obsessed point scorer can't handle fair play from the other side. Thanks for your opinion. On conspiracy though, you should try and keep current. Many of the scientists opposed to the narrative were silenced so that we only got one side of the story-safe n effective, stop the virus, save grandma etc. Now that those scientists are free to speak, it turns out that some of the concerns had merit. I don't need to pick sides although it's obvious that's the trend here-Tory v Labour, Brexit v Remain, Virus v Antivaxer, etc. That stuff is just what the news agencies do to weak minded people.. I prefer to question things, moreso when it's obvious that there's a real drive to convince the public of something. Covid was a classic for this right from the start. Whatever comes from it, people should be free to choose what they do without criticism from others. I also do preach being nice. It's important. I can't control how others receive messages on a chat board though, so if you feel offended by words on here, that's on you. How did the guardian article get you? That's your bible right? |
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Nov 12, 2023 10:02:26 GMT
79 , you bore me . UTG 😀
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Post by supergas on Nov 12, 2023 10:33:11 GMT
Again , I thought you preached being nice ? 🙄 My opinion for what it’s worth is you are a complete bloody loon who believes any covid vaccine conspiracy theory going . You provide no evidence ever , just nonsense. Only a few days ago you were saying those that had the jab were going to get cancer. What a whopper you are ! Then tried to deny it and said I was lying and making things up until you got sussed out by Gassy. You’ll just keep saying bad things will happen in the future 🙄 Talking of nonsense🙄 How are you so unable to reply directly to any points put to you?! I apologised and corrected my false statement btw. Again, I appreciate that an obsessed point scorer can't handle fair play from the other side. Thanks for your opinion. On conspiracy though, you should try and keep current. Many of the scientists opposed to the narrative were silenced so that we only got one side of the story-safe n effective, stop the virus, save grandma etc. Now that those scientists are free to speak, it turns out that some of the concerns had merit. I don't need to pick sides although it's obvious that's the trend here-Tory v Labour, Brexit v Remain, Virus v Antivaxer, etc. That stuff is just what the news agencies do to weak minded people.. I prefer to question things, moreso when it's obvious that there's a real drive to convince the public of something. Covid was a classic for this right from the start. Whatever comes from it, people should be free to choose what they do without criticism from others. I also do preach being nice. It's important. I can't control how others receive messages on a chat board though, so if you feel offended by words on here, that's on you. How did the guardian article get you? That's your bible right? OK - link me to three articles that will change my mind. I'm on a different side of party politics and Brexit to posters like Topper, Oldie and a lot of the others in the general chat who post a lot, but many of us seem to disagree with you in general on Covid - and over the last three years I have read a *lot* on the topic and debated a *lot* online with people over it - but not so much in the last six months... ...pick three articles. I will read them all, I will check any claims in them that I find unusual and I will read up on who wrote them. But they should be relevant to your claims about scientists being silenced, known concerns being hidden (not discovered later), possibly the media being involved in covering these things up and anything else you've claimed that doesn't fit the main narrative we are all familiar with.... |
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Post by oldie on Nov 12, 2023 10:45:18 GMT
Again , I thought you preached being nice ? 🙄 My opinion for what it’s worth is you are a complete bloody loon who believes any covid vaccine conspiracy theory going . You provide no evidence ever , just nonsense. Only a few days ago you were saying those that had the jab were going to get cancer. What a whopper you are ! Then tried to deny it and said I was lying and making things up until you got sussed out by Gassy. You’ll just keep saying bad things will happen in the future 🙄 Talking of nonsense🙄 How are you so unable to reply directly to any points put to you?! I apologised and corrected my false statement btw. Again, I appreciate that an obsessed point scorer can't handle fair play from the other side. Thanks for your opinion. On conspiracy though, you should try and keep current. Whatever comes from it, . I also do preach being nice. It's important. I can't control how others receive messages on a chat board though, so if you feel offended by words on here, that's on you. How did the guardian article get you? That's your bible right? oh god, this is like a broken record Who exactly was silenced? Ridiculed, laughed at, advised against listening to etc, yes absolutely. Even with hindsight, can you imagine all those thousands of Health Care Professionals around the world being stymied if they had real concerns over covid vaccines? The fact is they were not and when concerns were raised, for example thrombosis with the AstraZeneca version, the guidance on age discrimination was updated and it was withdrawn as a vaccine for children and an MRNA vaccine was recommended. No cover up, research undertaken as a result and I believe the process by which the AZ vaccine has caused thrombosis has been identified. Which is good for future R&D. In the meantime I believe 2Million doses have been administered, particularly the ease of use for the AZ vaccine had significant advantages over MRNA, refrigeration etc, not to mention significant cost advantages, important for poorer countries. I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but I would like to ask who, exactly, are these weak minded people you refer to? Who isnt? Contrary to your attempted characterisation those who oppose the Nationalists/ Conspiracy theorists are doing exactly that, questioning. Absolutely, as long as what anyone chooses to do, does not adversely affect others. This was/is an highly infectious disease which for the first two years we did not know how this would play out. What we did see were spikes in death rates, particularly within certain age groups or those with concurrent health issues. None of us knew, exactly. But some of us decided to accept what ever risks there were with the vaccines and take it, for ourselves and for those around us. It was antivaxxers who were making all the noise however, desperately trying to convince people who had made a decision to accept the vaccine that we were wrong and producing the most spurious of so called "evidence", mostly in an act of desperation in trying to convince everyone that they were right. Just as you GH79 continue to do so today. Who are you trying to convince? Most people have moved on, recognising that lessons needed to be learned, science to be developed based upon the evidence gathered What we do not need is, in response to the next time this will happen, which I am sure it will, is paranoid conspiracy theorists telling us we all are, apparently, "weak minded" for daring to choose to make our own decisions and not listen to their incoherent babble. We move on. Conspiracy theorists as represented in the Ultra Nationalists yesterday fighting with the police around the cenotaph telling the rest of us "we need to get our country back". yeah right. |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 12, 2023 16:55:19 GMT
Again , I thought you preached being nice ? 🙄 My opinion for what it’s worth is you are a complete bloody loon who believes any covid vaccine conspiracy theory going . You provide no evidence ever , just nonsense. Only a few days ago you were saying those that had the jab were going to get cancer. What a whopper you are ! Then tried to deny it and said I was lying and making things up until you got sussed out by Gassy. You’ll just keep saying bad things will happen in the future 🙄 Talking of nonsense🙄 How are you so unable to reply directly to any points put to you?! I apologised and corrected my false statement btw. Again, I appreciate that an obsessed point scorer can't handle fair play from the other side. Thanks for your opinion. On conspiracy though, you should try and keep current. Many of the scientists opposed to the narrative were silenced so that we only got one side of the story-safe n effective, stop the virus, save grandma etc. Now that those scientists are free to speak, it turns out that some of the concerns had merit. I don't need to pick sides although it's obvious that's the trend here-Tory v Labour, Brexit v Remain, Virus v Antivaxer, etc. That stuff is just what the news agencies do to weak minded people.. I prefer to question things, moreso when it's obvious that there's a real drive to convince the public of something. Covid was a classic for this right from the start. Whatever comes from it, people should be free to choose what they do without criticism from others. I also do preach being nice. It's important. I can't control how others receive messages on a chat board though, so if you feel offended by words on here, that's on you. How did the guardian article get you? That's your bible right? "Tory v Labour, Brexit v Remain, Virus v Antivaxer". That would make an intestinal Venn diagram. 😃 |
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yattongas
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Post by yattongas on Nov 13, 2023 15:13:50 GMT
Talking of nonsense🙄 How are you so unable to reply directly to any points put to you?! I apologised and corrected my false statement btw. Again, I appreciate that an obsessed point scorer can't handle fair play from the other side. Thanks for your opinion. On conspiracy though, you should try and keep current. Many of the scientists opposed to the narrative were silenced so that we only got one side of the story-safe n effective, stop the virus, save grandma etc. Now that those scientists are free to speak, it turns out that some of the concerns had merit. I don't need to pick sides although it's obvious that's the trend here-Tory v Labour, Brexit v Remain, Virus v Antivaxer, etc. That stuff is just what the news agencies do to weak minded people.. I prefer to question things, moreso when it's obvious that there's a real drive to convince the public of something. Covid was a classic for this right from the start. Whatever comes from it, people should be free to choose what they do without criticism from others. I also do preach being nice. It's important. I can't control how others receive messages on a chat board though, so if you feel offended by words on here, that's on you. How did the guardian article get you? That's your bible right? OK - link me to three articles that will change my mind. I'm on a different side of party politics and Brexit to posters like Topper, Oldie and a lot of the others in the general chat who post a lot, but many of us seem to disagree with you in general on Covid - and over the last three years I have read a *lot* on the topic and debated a *lot* online with people over it - but not so much in the last six months... ...pick three articles. I will read them all, I will check any claims in them that I find unusual and I will read up on who wrote them. But they should be relevant to your claims about scientists being silenced, known concerns being hidden (not discovered later), possibly the media being involved in covering these things up and anything else you've claimed that doesn't fit the main narrative we are all familiar with.... And it all went quiet 🤫 |
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Post by supergas on Nov 14, 2023 11:27:25 GMT
OK - link me to three articles that will change my mind. I'm on a different side of party politics and Brexit to posters like Topper, Oldie and a lot of the others in the general chat who post a lot, but many of us seem to disagree with you in general on Covid - and over the last three years I have read a *lot* on the topic and debated a *lot* online with people over it - but not so much in the last six months... ...pick three articles. I will read them all, I will check any claims in them that I find unusual and I will read up on who wrote them. But they should be relevant to your claims about scientists being silenced, known concerns being hidden (not discovered later), possibly the media being involved in covering these things up and anything else you've claimed that doesn't fit the main narrative we are all familiar with.... And it all went quiet 🤫 ....it's a known side-effect.... |
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Post by gashead79 on Nov 14, 2023 13:12:31 GMT
Talking of nonsense🙄 How are you so unable to reply directly to any points put to you?! I apologised and corrected my false statement btw. Again, I appreciate that an obsessed point scorer can't handle fair play from the other side. Thanks for your opinion. On conspiracy though, you should try and keep current. Many of the scientists opposed to the narrative were silenced so that we only got one side of the story-safe n effective, stop the virus, save grandma etc. Now that those scientists are free to speak, it turns out that some of the concerns had merit. I don't need to pick sides although it's obvious that's the trend here-Tory v Labour, Brexit v Remain, Virus v Antivaxer, etc. That stuff is just what the news agencies do to weak minded people.. I prefer to question things, moreso when it's obvious that there's a real drive to convince the public of something. Covid was a classic for this right from the start. Whatever comes from it, people should be free to choose what they do without criticism from others. I also do preach being nice. It's important. I can't control how others receive messages on a chat board though, so if you feel offended by words on here, that's on you. How did the guardian article get you? That's your bible right? OK - link me to three articles that will change my mind. I'm on a different side of party politics and Brexit to posters like Topper, Oldie and a lot of the others in the general chat who post a lot, but many of us seem to disagree with you in general on Covid - and over the last three years I have read a *lot* on the topic and debated a *lot* online with people over it - but not so much in the last six months... ...pick three articles. I will read them all, I will check any claims in them that I find unusual and I will read up on who wrote them. But they should be relevant to your claims about scientists being silenced, known concerns being hidden (not discovered later), possibly the media being involved in covering these things up and anything else you've claimed that doesn't fit the main narrative we are all familiar with.... I don't want to change your mind! I'm only posting what I think. Info arguing various points relating to covid/vaccines is all over social media so if you've 'read and debated alot', I wont have anything new for you. |
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Post by gashead79 on Nov 14, 2023 13:24:48 GMT
Talking of nonsense🙄 How are you so unable to reply directly to any points put to you?! I apologised and corrected my false statement btw. Again, I appreciate that an obsessed point scorer can't handle fair play from the other side. Thanks for your opinion. On conspiracy though, you should try and keep current. Whatever comes from it, . I also do preach being nice. It's important. I can't control how others receive messages on a chat board though, so if you feel offended by words on here, that's on you. How did the guardian article get you? That's your bible right? oh god, this is like a broken record Who exactly was silenced? Ridiculed, laughed at, advised against listening to etc, yes absolutely. Even with hindsight, can you imagine all those thousands of Health Care Professionals around the world being stymied if they had real concerns over covid vaccines? The fact is they were not and when concerns were raised, for example thrombosis with the AstraZeneca version, the guidance on age discrimination was updated and it was withdrawn as a vaccine for children and an MRNA vaccine was recommended. No cover up, research undertaken as a result and I believe the process by which the AZ vaccine has caused thrombosis has been identified. Which is good for future R&D. In the meantime I believe 2Million doses have been administered, particularly the ease of use for the AZ vaccine had significant advantages over MRNA, refrigeration etc, not to mention significant cost advantages, important for poorer countries. I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but I would like to ask who, exactly, are these weak minded people you refer to? Who isnt? Contrary to your attempted characterisation those who oppose the Nationalists/ Conspiracy theorists are doing exactly that, questioning. Absolutely, as long as what anyone chooses to do, does not adversely affect others. This was/is an highly infectious disease which for the first two years we did not know how this would play out. What we did see were spikes in death rates, particularly within certain age groups or those with concurrent health issues. None of us knew, exactly. But some of us decided to accept what ever risks there were with the vaccines and take it, for ourselves and for those around us. It was antivaxxers who were making all the noise however, desperately trying to convince people who had made a decision to accept the vaccine that we were wrong and producing the most spurious of so called "evidence", mostly in an act of desperation in trying to convince everyone that they were right. Just as you GH79 continue to do so today. Who are you trying to convince? Most people have moved on, recognising that lessons needed to be learned, science to be developed based upon the evidence gathered What we do not need is, in response to the next time this will happen, which I am sure it will, is paranoid conspiracy theorists telling us we all are, apparently, "weak minded" for daring to choose to make our own decisions and not listen to their incoherent babble. We move on. Conspiracy theorists as represented in the Ultra Nationalists yesterday fighting with the police around the cenotaph telling the rest of us "we need to get our country back". yeah right. There's quite a bit here for me to respond to but tbh, we've done much of this. It's going round in circles and we do not have to agree. Weak minded people-oldie, people lost their minds over this. One of my neighbours was washing her fruit and veg in the garden before taking it in the house! In terms of trying to convince people. Like I've said, I don't need to convince anybody of anything. Many people who got scared initially are slowly realising what happened. You mention the AZ vax, that got pulled over safety concerns ffs. Come off it. In my opinion the whole thing was a well played scam. If that makes me an unfavourable loon or anything else this little crowd wishes to throw at me, that's fine. I'm not perfect yet. |
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Post by oldie on Nov 14, 2023 13:40:29 GMT
oh god, this is like a broken record Who exactly was silenced? Ridiculed, laughed at, advised against listening to etc, yes absolutely. Even with hindsight, can you imagine all those thousands of Health Care Professionals around the world being stymied if they had real concerns over covid vaccines? The fact is they were not and when concerns were raised, for example thrombosis with the AstraZeneca version, the guidance on age discrimination was updated and it was withdrawn as a vaccine for children and an MRNA vaccine was recommended. No cover up, research undertaken as a result and I believe the process by which the AZ vaccine has caused thrombosis has been identified. Which is good for future R&D. In the meantime I believe 2Million doses have been administered, particularly the ease of use for the AZ vaccine had significant advantages over MRNA, refrigeration etc, not to mention significant cost advantages, important for poorer countries. I am not sure what you are trying to say here, but I would like to ask who, exactly, are these weak minded people you refer to? Who isnt? Contrary to your attempted characterisation those who oppose the Nationalists/ Conspiracy theorists are doing exactly that, questioning. Absolutely, as long as what anyone chooses to do, does not adversely affect others. This was/is an highly infectious disease which for the first two years we did not know how this would play out. What we did see were spikes in death rates, particularly within certain age groups or those with concurrent health issues. None of us knew, exactly. But some of us decided to accept what ever risks there were with the vaccines and take it, for ourselves and for those around us. It was antivaxxers who were making all the noise however, desperately trying to convince people who had made a decision to accept the vaccine that we were wrong and producing the most spurious of so called "evidence", mostly in an act of desperation in trying to convince everyone that they were right. Just as you GH79 continue to do so today. Who are you trying to convince? Most people have moved on, recognising that lessons needed to be learned, science to be developed based upon the evidence gathered What we do not need is, in response to the next time this will happen, which I am sure it will, is paranoid conspiracy theorists telling us we all are, apparently, "weak minded" for daring to choose to make our own decisions and not listen to their incoherent babble. We move on. Conspiracy theorists as represented in the Ultra Nationalists yesterday fighting with the police around the cenotaph telling the rest of us "we need to get our country back". yeah right. There's quite a bit here for me to respond to but tbh, we've done much of this. It's going round in circles and we do not have to agree. Weak minded people-oldie, people lost their minds over this. One of my neighbours was washing her fruit and veg in the garden before taking it in the house! In terms of trying to convince people. Like I've said, I don't need to convince anybody of anything. Many people who got scared initially are slowly realising what happened. You mention the AZ vax, that got pulled over safety concerns ffs. Come off it. In my opinion the whole thing was a well played scam. If that makes me an unfavourable loon or anything else this little crowd wishes to throw at me, that's fine. I'm not perfect yet. Do as you wish. But if you post up half baked nonsense you are going to draw a response. Again your choice of language here is dubious and as always produce not a shred of third party references or evidence to back it. Personally I won't bother anymore because I have come to the conclusion that you actually don't know what you are talking about and cannot string together a coherent argument. |
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Nov 14, 2023 14:56:24 GMT
There's quite a bit here for me to respond to but tbh, we've done much of this. It's going round in circles and we do not have to agree. Weak minded people-oldie, people lost their minds over this. One of my neighbours was washing her fruit and veg in the garden before taking it in the house! In terms of trying to convince people. Like I've said, I don't need to convince anybody of anything. Many people who got scared initially are slowly realising what happened. You mention the AZ vax, that got pulled over safety concerns ffs. Come off it. In my opinion the whole thing was a well played scam. If that makes me an unfavourable loon or anything else this little crowd wishes to throw at me, that's fine. I'm not perfect yet. Do as you wish. But if you post up half baked nonsense you are going to draw a response. Again your choice of language here is dubious and as always produce not a shred of third party references or evidence to back it. Personally I won't bother anymore because I have come to the conclusion that you actually don't know what you are talking about and cannot string together a coherent argument. To be fair, it's not the most misleading stuff posted on this (or some other) thread. 😶 |
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Post by oldie on Nov 14, 2023 18:32:50 GMT
Do as you wish. But if you post up half baked nonsense you are going to draw a response. Again your choice of language here is dubious and as always produce not a shred of third party references or evidence to back it. Personally I won't bother anymore because I have come to the conclusion that you actually don't know what you are talking about and cannot string together a coherent argument. To be fair, it's not the most misleading stuff posted on this (or some other) thread. 😶 Pirate? |
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Post by supergas on Nov 15, 2023 9:51:28 GMT
OK - link me to three articles that will change my mind. I'm on a different side of party politics and Brexit to posters like Topper, Oldie and a lot of the others in the general chat who post a lot, but many of us seem to disagree with you in general on Covid - and over the last three years I have read a *lot* on the topic and debated a *lot* online with people over it - but not so much in the last six months... ...pick three articles. I will read them all, I will check any claims in them that I find unusual and I will read up on who wrote them. But they should be relevant to your claims about scientists being silenced, known concerns being hidden (not discovered later), possibly the media being involved in covering these things up and anything else you've claimed that doesn't fit the main narrative we are all familiar with.... I don't want to change your mind! I'm only posting what I think. Info arguing various points relating to covid/vaccines is all over social media so if you've 'read and debated alot', I wont have anything new for you. Well your allegations are serious. Apparently scientists and politicians around the world have been conspiring to cover up facts to push the known narrative and *checks notes* enable most people to return to a normal life less than 18 months after the pandemic started... ...the problem with all of the articles I've read about this kind of thing is that very few get past a simple cross-check with more reputable sources - and those that do still don't have enough sensible sources that can back up their claims... |
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Post by oldie on Nov 15, 2023 10:26:30 GMT
I don't want to change your mind! I'm only posting what I think. Info arguing various points relating to covid/vaccines is all over social media so if you've 'read and debated alot', I wont have anything new for you. Well your allegations are serious. Apparently scientists and politicians around the world have been conspiring to cover up facts to push the known narrative and *checks notes* enable most people to return to a normal life less than 18 months after the pandemic started... ...the problem with all of the articles I've read about this kind of thing is that very few get past a simple cross-check with more reputable sources - and those that do still don't have enough sensible sources that can back up their claims... Exactly that...well said |
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Post by gashead79 on Nov 16, 2023 14:28:04 GMT
I don't want to change your mind! I'm only posting what I think. Info arguing various points relating to covid/vaccines is all over social media so if you've 'read and debated alot', I wont have anything new for you. Well your allegations are serious. Apparently scientists and politicians around the world have been conspiring to cover up facts to push the known narrative and *checks notes* enable most people to return to a normal life less than 18 months after the pandemic started... ...the problem with all of the articles I've read about this kind of thing is that very few get past a simple cross-check with more reputable sources - and those that do still don't have enough sensible sources that can back up their claims... Fair enough. Ultimately people can make choices which they feel are informed-based on what's out there, or uninformed-on what isn't available or on how they feel or their interpretations. As stated, I'm not interested in going round in circles or changing peoples minds outside of my responsibilities. I'm satisfied with mine and most of my family's approach since 2020 in the face of alot of pressure from all angles. The mood is changing as time is passing and it's still quite a hot topic for some. I see things like this on twitface and am glad that some semblance of free speech is allowed now. Either way, to repeat, people can walk the path they think is correct. My conscience is very clear on the pandemic and its various chapters. x.com/OV_Matter/status/1724926703905247651?s=20 |
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