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Post by trevorgas on Sept 15, 2022 10:55:49 GMT
Pay more attention,100 lines otherwise 😊 Sorry 😞. Fascinating that so many are fascinated. Imagine queuing for hours just to walk past a ( iron clad !) wooden box . Each to their own I guess . Exactly |
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Post by trevorgas on Sept 15, 2022 10:57:56 GMT
A genuine question,if we did not have a monarchy in the last 300 years would we have had the Empire? To many variables possible to answer that in reality. I'm saying yes as everyone was at it,even the French although Napoleon was more of a Monarch than his contemporaries. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 15, 2022 11:04:20 GMT
To many variables possible to answer that in reality. I'm saying yes as everyone was at it,even the French although Napoleon was more of a Monarch than his contemporaries. Certainly since 1688. The one variable that may have been different and perhaps affected subsequent events was the American War of Independence. Had a compromise been reached which was within the realms of pragmatic statesmen even of the day, things may well have affected the French Revolution too. |
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Post by oldie on Sept 15, 2022 12:58:10 GMT
To many variables possible to answer that in reality. I'm saying yes as everyone was at it,even the French although Napoleon was more of a Monarch than his contemporaries. So If in the 1930s Moseley had held sway and we had degenerated into a fascist state that would have been, fine, understandable because everyone was at it, Germany, Italy, Japan and Spain. Right? We didn't because we resisted, no thanks to Elizabeth's uncle was it? |
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Post by The Equaliser on Sept 15, 2022 14:26:55 GMT
This is probably exactly how it would have happened in a night club *change to. This didn’t happen 👍🏾 |
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Post by trevorgas on Sept 15, 2022 14:44:07 GMT
I'm saying yes as everyone was at it,even the French although Napoleon was more of a Monarch than his contemporaries. So If in the 1930s Moseley had held sway and we had degenerated into a fascist state that would have been, fine, understandable because everyone was at it, Germany, Italy, Japan and Spain. Right? We didn't because we resisted, no thanks to Elizabeth's uncle was it? No didn't say it was fine,just providing some historical context,as for the 1930s it wasn't t only Edward also a fair few of the government as well,not sure what Edward thought or did held much sway when the government's only policy was appeasement. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 15, 2022 15:06:27 GMT
So If in the 1930s Moseley had held sway and we had degenerated into a fascist state that would have been, fine, understandable because everyone was at it, Germany, Italy, Japan and Spain. Right? We didn't because we resisted, no thanks to Elizabeth's uncle was it? No didn't say it was fine,just providing some historical context,as for the 1930s it wasn't t only Edward also a fair few of the government as well,not sure what Edward thought or did held much sway when the government's only policy was appeasement. Edward was King in 1936, the GE was held in 1935 and his party didn't contest it as far I recall. |
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pirate
Forum Legend
Posts: 19,470 
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Post by pirate on Sept 15, 2022 15:32:01 GMT
I'm saying yes as everyone was at it,even the French although Napoleon was more of a Monarch than his contemporaries. So If in the 1930s Moseley had held sway and we had degenerated into a fascist state that would have been, fine, understandable because everyone was at it, Germany, Italy, Japan and Spain. Right? We didn't because we resisted, no thanks to Elizabeth's uncle was it? |
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Post by fintanstack on Sept 15, 2022 15:51:16 GMT
There was a picture doing the rounds a few years ago showing the Queen mother and the Queen doing a nazi salute if I remember correctly.
God bless her.
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Post by yattongas on Sept 15, 2022 16:00:19 GMT
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Post by axegas on Sept 15, 2022 16:25:50 GMT
Hopefully we can have a referendum on the monarchy as soon as possible now so the people can decide on how we want to be governed.
If we vote to keep it, then fair enough, but we’ve never had that say unlike some other modern constitutional monarchies.
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Post by aghast on Sept 15, 2022 16:32:28 GMT
Sure, I would have thought you might be (ambivalent). But the point remains that the Head of State is accountable for the executive. Unless of course in the UK they are actually not. If this is the case then that begs the question of exactly what "decades of selfless service" means, given the relentless propaganda, 24/7 currently, rammed down our throats. On myopia, perhaps, given that I am not ambivalent on the monarchy. A genuine question,if we did not have a monarchy in the last 300 years would we have had the Empire? I rather think we would have, actually. By the time the Empire was under construction through stealth, sleight of hand and illegal treaties, the days of British monarchs leading their armies to victory and taking new lands were long gone. A lot of it was done in the name of the King or Queen to give it a veneer of respectability (by the standards of the times), but it seems to me it was all about making money for Britain, or more importantly for rich businessmen of the time. A bit like China is now doing as it slowly takes over Africa. |
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Post by rememberhalifax on Sept 15, 2022 18:51:08 GMT
Hopefully we can have a referendum on the monarchy as soon as possible now so the people can decide on how we want to be governed. If we vote to keep it, then fair enough, but we’ve never had that say unlike some other modern constitutional monarchies. Why? i would have thought it very obvious from the past few days that folk in the UK are happy with the present system with a 'constitutional ' monarchy. It sure beats the alternative! rest of the world seem to think so to, excepting Putin and co of course! |
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 15, 2022 19:34:19 GMT
There was a picture doing the rounds a few years ago showing the Queen mother and the Queen doing a nazi salute if I remember correctly. God bless her. So did the England football team amongst others at the time, not sure we can read too much into that to be honest. |
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Post by stuart1974 on Sept 15, 2022 19:37:03 GMT
Hopefully we can have a referendum on the monarchy as soon as possible now so the people can decide on how we want to be governed. If we vote to keep it, then fair enough, but we’ve never had that say unlike some other modern constitutional monarchies. Which ones are you thinking of? The question I would ask is what would be proposed to replace it. As I asked of Brisgas before he left, there are several options out there but do we vote on the principle or on a specific model? |
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Post by axegas on Sept 15, 2022 19:39:07 GMT
Hopefully we can have a referendum on the monarchy as soon as possible now so the people can decide on how we want to be governed. If we vote to keep it, then fair enough, but we’ve never had that say unlike some other modern constitutional monarchies. Why? i would have thought it very obvious from the past few days that folk in the UK are happy with the present system with a 'constitutional ' monarchy. It sure beats the alternative! rest of the world seem to think so to, excepting Putin and co of course! If it's fairly obvious, lets have a vote. I've seen a lot of love and respect for the queen, but equally a lot of people from a large cross section of society say the monarchy is an outdated tradition that needs to go. I mean we're literally paying taxpayers money to fund a wealthy family live a life of privilege. The houses, the history, the estates and the heritage will make us money long after their gone like in France, we could open up Buckingham palace to the public like Versailles. Don't agree with the concept of divine right of kings and never have done. |
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Post by axegas on Sept 15, 2022 19:47:56 GMT
Hopefully we can have a referendum on the monarchy as soon as possible now so the people can decide on how we want to be governed. If we vote to keep it, then fair enough, but we’ve never had that say unlike some other modern constitutional monarchies. Which ones are you thinking of? The question I would ask is what would be proposed to replace it. As I asked of Brisgas before he left, there are several options out there but do we vote on the principle or on a specific model? Spain in 1978 voted in a constitutional referendum to re establish their monarchy after Franco's death. Australia had a referendum on the monarchy in 1997 I believe? Italy booted their monarchy out in a referendum after the war. I'm sure there are more examples out there. Personally I'd be in favour of not separating powers between a head of state and a head of Parliament like the France. But going for a more token head of state like in Ireland or Germany, but I think either system would work better than monarchy. |
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Post by axegas on Sept 15, 2022 19:58:36 GMT
I feel more strongly about us being ruled on a consensual basis, than I feel about abolishing the monarchy per say. If we voted to retain the monarchy in a referendum, then I'd feel alright about it. Consent shouldn't be assumed.
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Post by aghast on Sept 15, 2022 20:03:05 GMT
I would say the monarchy in this country works on its own terms and within the constraints put upon it, and most people seem happy with it, but it's obviously anachronistic and undemocratic, so a debate about it is always worthwhile. Can't see the UK population voting to abolish them yet though. Maybe Charles will start the process of winding it down. I've often thought he might want to do that.
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Post by axegas on Sept 15, 2022 20:09:18 GMT
I would say the monarchy in this country works on its own terms and within the constraints put upon it, and most people seem happy with it, but it's obviously anachronistic and undemocratic, so a debate about it is always worthwhile. Can't see the UK population voting to abolish them yet though. Maybe Charles will start the process of winding it down. I've often thought he might want to do that. I personally think what will happen is we'll see a very gradual process of the Commonwealth realms voting to abolish the monarchy. Perhaps some Caribbean islands first, then Australia, then Canada then New Zealand. It will finally come to its head when Scotland gains its independence and votes to get rid of it. Then England will have its say and we'll probably vote to keep it, but the monarchy by then will be a shadow of itself as it was under Elizabeth II. |
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