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Post by Gassy on May 8, 2021 19:54:58 GMT
So I feel this deserves it's own thread.
I must admit, I don't really follow or understand Scottish politics - but I was interested (and confused) by Sturgeon's comments over out 'incredible' victory. Didn't they get the exact same seats as 5 years ago? And didn't she say that if she got a majority, that'd be proof of a referendum?
And despite not getting a majority, it's still proof the Scottish people want a referendum? Even though the votes were actually split 50/50?
As it happens, I totally understand them wanting a referendum again - Brexit changed everything. But I'm not sure this election shows clearly what Scotland wants.
What are others' thoughts?
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Post by peterparker on May 8, 2021 20:51:39 GMT
So I feel this deserves it's own thread. I must admit, I don't really follow or understand Scottish politics - but I was interested (and confused) by Sturgeon's comments over out 'incredible' victory. Didn't they get the exact same seats as 5 years ago? And didn't she say that if she got a majority, that'd be proof of a referendum? And despite not getting a majority, it's still proof the Scottish people want a referendum? Even though the votes were actually split 50/50? As it happens, I totally understand them wanting a referendum again - Brexit changed everything. But I'm not sure this election shows clearly what Scotland wants. What are others' thoughts? Its hard for them to get more seats as the voting system is designed that way to basically stop an overall majority The more constituency votes/seats they get, the less list seats they can get All in all though vote share is roughly 50/50 between independence parties and unionist ones. BREXIT certainly gives the SNP a good argument for another referendum, but is a risk for the SNP and Westminster with the split being so even |
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Post by yattongas on May 8, 2021 21:46:39 GMT
It’s interesting the rise in nationalism is all the uk countries since Brexit . The jack is out of the box now .
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Post by Officer Barbrady on May 8, 2021 22:49:41 GMT
They overwhelmingly voted to remain and as such I fully support their desire not to be dragged down with us after our economic faux-pas. So fair play to them, let them have their say and if that means the breakup of the union it will just be another project-fear-come-true. Boris is clearly bricking it after calling a meeting for 'Team UK'. Must be a right old bind being responsible for the consequences of your own actions.
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Post by trevorgas on May 9, 2021 9:04:12 GMT
They overwhelmingly voted to remain and as such I fully support their desire not to be dragged down with us after our economic faux-pas. So fair play to them, let them have their say and if that means the breakup of the union it will just be another project-fear-come-true. Boris is clearly bricking it after calling a meeting for 'Team UK'. Must be a right old bind being responsible for the consequences of your own actions. If I was Boris I would let her have a referendum now,she doesn't want one immediately so let them get on with it. I fully support their right to self determination I would however point out calmly without scaremongering that if it's yes vote then the following would happen pdq: All funding from Westminster to stop asap. No pound,develop and float your own currency. No Queen as head of state. All armed forces bases and resource to close and leave. Etc etc ,no long tail of future support and funding you can't be independent then ask your neighbour to carry on supporting. It will be a supreme irony that the the government will rerun leaving the EU with the rest of the UK adopting the EU position. Scotlands chances of rejoining the EU by the backdoor are slim with Spain already committed to veto due to the Catalan separatists issue. If they did then ala Northern Ireland queue Custom Controls along the border,challenging when 80% of their export market is in the UK. In the end a bit like Brexit get it over and done pdq rather than it being a constant running sore for the next 5 years. |
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Post by yattongas on May 9, 2021 9:26:53 GMT
They’ll go eventually and who can blame them . The more Boris & co deny them the more support for leaving will grow.
Another Brexit scare story coming true 🙄
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Post by trevorgas on May 9, 2021 9:48:45 GMT
They’ll go eventually and who can blame them . The more Boris & co deny them the more support for leaving will grow. Another Brexit scare story coming true 🙄 This isn't a Boris issue,the seeds for Independence were sown decades ago,devolution turbo charged and the demise of Labour in Scotland has just hastened it,go back to Blair/Brown and Devomax which really kicked this of,it just happens to be reaching a crescendo on this governments watch,having lived there for 13 years I can say there is a real anti English sentiment that runs right through the Country,I have many Scottish friends however,I have personally been subjected to dogs abuse just for being English so let them get on with it. |
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Post by trevorgas on May 9, 2021 9:52:32 GMT
It’s interesting the rise in nationalism is all the uk countries since Brexit . The jack is out of the box now . There's been nationalist movement's in Scotland,Wales for decades and the partion of Ireland was clearly a Nationalist issue,nothing to do with Brexit more to do with self determination. |
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Post by yattongas on May 9, 2021 9:57:12 GMT
They’ll go eventually and who can blame them . The more Boris & co deny them the more support for leaving will grow. Another Brexit scare story coming true 🙄 This isn't a Boris issue,the seeds for Independence were sown decades ago,devolution turbo charged and the demise of Labour in Scotland has just hastened it,go back to Blair/Brown and Devomax which really kicked this of,it just happens to be reaching a crescendo on this governments watch,having lived there for 13 years I can say there is a real anti English sentiment that runs right through the Country,I have many Scottish friends however,I have personally been subjected to dogs abuse just for being English so let them get on with it. It’s massively a Boris issue , he’s despised north of the border. I’m amazed you think it’s not an issue . |
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Post by matealotblue on May 9, 2021 9:57:23 GMT
They overwhelmingly voted to remain and as such I fully support their desire not to be dragged down with us after our economic faux-pas. So fair play to them, let them have their say and if that means the breakup of the union it will just be another project-fear-come-true. Boris is clearly bricking it after calling a meeting for 'Team UK'. Must be a right old bind being responsible for the consequences of your own actions. If I was Boris I would let her have a referendum now,she doesn't want one immediately so let them get on with it. I fully support their right to self determination I would however point out calmly without scaremongering that if it's yes vote then the following would happen pdq: All funding from Westminster to stop asap. No pound,develop and float your own currency. No Queen as head of state. All armed forces bases and resource to close and leave. Etc etc ,no long tail of future support and funding you can't be independent then ask your neighbour to carry on supporting. It will be a supreme irony that the the government will rerun leaving the EU with the rest of the UK adopting the EU position. Scotlands chances of rejoining the EU by the backdoor are slim with Spain already committed to veto due to the Catalan separatists issue. If they did then ala Northern Ireland queue Custom Controls along the border,challenging when 80% of their export market is in the UK. In the end a bit like Brexit get it over and done pdq rather than it being a constant running sore for the next 5 years. And there in, for me, is the issue I have with this. If they want to go....bye bye! However, to the best of my knowledge, nowhere in any of the debate thus far by the SNP has the real cost of this move been placed before the voting public there. Selling a dream (easy bit) but not letting on what the cost may be (difficult bit). Not sure anyone actually knows that last bit, but shouldn’t it be debated/costed to get as much fact out there before any irrevocable decision is taken? |
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Post by yattongas on May 9, 2021 10:00:20 GMT
It’s interesting the rise in nationalism is all the uk countries since Brexit . The jack is out of the box now . There's been nationalist movement's in Scotland,Wales for decades and the partion of Ireland was clearly a Nationalist issue,nothing to do with Brexit more to do with self determination. It’s accelerated it ,in all the four home nations. Yes it is in part Down to brexit . You can keep on denying the evidence on this and many other Brexit related issues but it’s doesn’t stop it being real. |
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Post by matealotblue on May 9, 2021 10:05:15 GMT
This isn't a Boris issue,the seeds for Independence were sown decades ago,devolution turbo charged and the demise of Labour in Scotland has just hastened it,go back to Blair/Brown and Devomax which really kicked this of,it just happens to be reaching a crescendo on this governments watch,having lived there for 13 years I can say there is a real anti English sentiment that runs right through the Country,I have many Scottish friends however,I have personally been subjected to dogs abuse just for being English so let them get on with it. It’s massively a Boris issue , he’s despised north of the border. I’m amazed you think it’s not an issue . The fact he is despised north of the border post dates any Scottish Independence moves by a country mile. Anti English sentiment has been bubbling under there for ages. Not helping maybe in the current political debate maybe. But he is just the current custodian of this issue. |
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Post by yattongas on May 9, 2021 10:08:26 GMT
It’s massively a Boris issue , he’s despised north of the border. I’m amazed you think it’s not an issue . The fact he is despised north of the border post dates any Scottish Independence moves by a country mile. Anti English sentiment has been bubbling under there for ages. Not helping maybe in the current political debate maybe. But he is just the current custodian of this issue. Yes but it’s getting worse under his leadership and the more he denies them a second referendum the more support for it will grow. There will be a second referendum what ever he’s saying now . |
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Post by trevorgas on May 9, 2021 10:17:54 GMT
This isn't a Boris issue,the seeds for Independence were sown decades ago,devolution turbo charged and the demise of Labour in Scotland has just hastened it,go back to Blair/Brown and Devomax which really kicked this of,it just happens to be reaching a crescendo on this governments watch,having lived there for 13 years I can say there is a real anti English sentiment that runs right through the Country,I have many Scottish friends however,I have personally been subjected to dogs abuse just for being English so let them get on with it. It’s massively a Boris issue , he’s despised north of the border. I’m amazed you think it’s not an issue . Independence is not an issue that has happened in the last 3 years is it ?,it doesn't matter who the current PM is and from what party we we're always going to come to this point,all Tory PMs are despised in Scotland and they have little time for Labour ones either,look they won't vote yes or no because of Boris they will in the main consider a full range of issues and vote accordingly. |
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Post by trevorgas on May 9, 2021 10:18:55 GMT
If I was Boris I would let her have a referendum now,she doesn't want one immediately so let them get on with it. I fully support their right to self determination I would however point out calmly without scaremongering that if it's yes vote then the following would happen pdq: All funding from Westminster to stop asap. No pound,develop and float your own currency. No Queen as head of state. All armed forces bases and resource to close and leave. Etc etc ,no long tail of future support and funding you can't be independent then ask your neighbour to carry on supporting. It will be a supreme irony that the the government will rerun leaving the EU with the rest of the UK adopting the EU position. Scotlands chances of rejoining the EU by the backdoor are slim with Spain already committed to veto due to the Catalan separatists issue. If they did then ala Northern Ireland queue Custom Controls along the border,challenging when 80% of their export market is in the UK. In the end a bit like Brexit get it over and done pdq rather than it being a constant running sore for the next 5 years. And there in, for me, is the issue I have with this. If they want to go....bye bye! However, to the best of my knowledge, nowhere in any of the debate thus far by the SNP has the real cost of this move been placed before the voting public there. Selling a dream (easy bit) but not letting on what the cost may be (difficult bit). Not sure anyone actually knows that last bit, but shouldn’t it be debated/costed to get as much fact out there before any irrevocable decision is taken? Absolutely |
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Post by trevorgas on May 9, 2021 10:20:59 GMT
There's been nationalist movement's in Scotland,Wales for decades and the partion of Ireland was clearly a Nationalist issue,nothing to do with Brexit more to do with self determination. It’s accelerated it ,in all the four home nations. Yes it is in part Down to brexit . You can keep on denying the evidence on this and many other Brexit related issues but it’s doesn’t stop it being real. Where's the evidence,the last referendum was 2014 nothing to do with Brexit,no real increase in Plaids vote this time so I see no evidence. |
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Post by yattongas on May 9, 2021 10:29:12 GMT
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Post by yattongas on May 9, 2021 10:34:58 GMT
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Post by trevorgas on May 9, 2021 10:49:59 GMT
That's not evidence just a poll,look at Plaids votes and no seat increase that's the real test of public opinion,not would you support a referendum in 10 years time. Brexit is one of many factors but the indepence movements were in existence long before anyone dreamt of Brexit. |
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Post by yattongas on May 9, 2021 10:57:07 GMT
That's not evidence just a poll,look at Plaids votes and no seat increase that's the real test of public opinion,not would you support a referendum in 10 years time. Brexit is one of many factors but the indepence movements were in existence long before anyone dreamt of Brexit. Polls in 2014 suggested that support for Welsh independence was around 14% of voters.[15][16] A poll performed in November 2020 found that when looking at those who would vote, 33% would vote Yes to Welsh independence.[17] January 2021's Welsh Political Barometer poll for ITV Wales and Cardiff University suggested 29% of voters would vote 'Yes' to independence in a referendum.[18] The most recent 7 polls have found that when looking at support among voters (by excluding answers of 'don't know') support for Welsh independence is between 29% and 33%.[19][20][21] |
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