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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 19:05:59 GMT
WASHINGTON, D.C. – Here is a statement from Washington Archbishop Wilton D. Gregory regarding the planned visit today from the president at the Saint John Paul II National Shrine: I find it baffling and reprehensible that any Catholic facility would allow itself to be so egregiously misused and manipulated in a fashion that violates our religious principles, which call us to defend the rights of all people even those with whom we might disagree. Saint Pope John Paul II was an ardent defender of the rights and dignity of human beings. His legacy bears vivid witness to that truth. He certainly would not condone the use of tear gas and other deterrents to silence, scatter or intimidate them for a photo opportunity in front of a place of worship and peace. Archbishop Gregory will participate in an Online Dialogue with the Initiative on Catholic Social Thought and Public Life at Georgetown University this Friday, June 5, from 12 noon - 1 p.m. EDT to discuss “Racism in Our Streets and Structures - A Test of Faith, A Crisis for Our Nation.” More detailed information and registration for this Zoom discussion here: catholicsocialthought.georgetown.edu/events/racism-in-our-streets-and-structuresOn Sunday, May 31, Washington Archbishop Wilton Gregory released this statement on the Memorial Day death of George Floyd: In astonishment, we are seeing the reactions of people across the United States as they express feelings of frustration, hurt, and anger in their cry for justice for George Floyd, whom we painfully watched being suffocated in front of our eyes on video in Minneapolis, Minnesota this past week. Many of us remember similar incidents in our history that accompanied the Civil Rights Movement, where we repeatedly saw Black Americans viciously brutalized by police on television and in newspaper photos. Those historic moments helped to rouse our national conscience to the African American experience in the United States and now, in 2020, we tragically still see repeated incidents of police brutality against African Americans. We find ourselves in this national moment again with the awakening of our conscience by heartbreaking photos and video that clearly confirm that racism still endures in our country. On television and in social media, we are observing an overflow of pain felt acutely in the African American community and shared by too many other communities. |
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Post by axegas on Jun 2, 2020 19:19:30 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2020 20:02:02 GMT
I don’t think he’s too far wide of the mark personally. They cause trouble wherever they turn up because they disagree with freedom of speech and the right to peaceful protest. Hate speech is an unfortunate but necessary by-product of the right to be able to say what we think in a free country. Nobody should have the right to take that away through violence, to do so is fascist censorship. Ergo, Antifa are very much a fascist organisation. You combat hate speech by letting it’s own ridiculousness out itself and having a convincing counter argument, not by using violence to shut them up. Ask yourself why they cause that trouble, it isn't for the sake of it, it's to confront racism, bigotry and hatred of others in all its forms. They don't disagree with freedom of speech, they simply use theirs to stand up to racism and right wing mis-educated views that are designed to cause division within society. You're countering me now because you disagree with me, you have a right to, that's free speech right? That's simply what Antifa do every time they counter-march an EDL rally. You can't let those kind of opinions be on the streets in broad daylight uncontested. Seeing looting and destruction of public property was appalling and I don't endorse it any way but that's not what the protests were about or stood for. I sense that your argument comes from a good place, you support free speech and educated counter arguments, so do I. But be careful about who you defend because trust me Trump, Right Wing groups both sides of the pond and organisations like the EDL will do far more harm to free speech and democracy than Antifa and others that oppose them ever will. With respect I think part of the issue is people throw their own emotion into this type of argument when it should be di****sionate. Does my support for free speech mean that I support the things people say? No, of course not. But this is isn’t an argument about what I personally believe it’s an argument about personal liberty for everyone and in that sense telling people what they can and can’t say when you have no lawful right to do so is absolutely fascist. It doesn’t matter what the content of the message you are trying to shut down is. Who has the right to arbitrate and say that their cause is more moral therefore they have more right to suppress a certain kind of speech? I’m not expressing it well but can you see where I’m going with this? If Antifa find that they are successful in stopping free speech then taken to it’s ultimate conclusion we live in a world where everyone has to use the right gender pro-noun and conform to other such radical left wing nonsense that Antifa come up with simply because their cause is more moral than everyone else’s and they have learnt that everyone trusts them to arbitrate on who can say what. We wouldn’t tolerate that from racists so, being objective, we shouldn’t tolerate it from Antifa either. Accepting limits on freedom of speech from *anyone* is a very slippery slope. Nobody should need to be reminded of the wars that have been fought to keep the citizens of this country *free*. And just to clarify disagreeing with a message is obviously fine, but from what I see Antifa do not simply vocally challenge, they use violence if needs be to achieve their aims. Again, very fascist. The footage I saw of them on the BBC Charlottesville documentary did not paint them in a good light as it was clear that, whilst clearly on a wind up the white supremacists were non-violent and Antifa threw the first punch because they just couldn’t help themselves. Everyone should have the right to peaceful protest, if you need to resort to weapons and fists to defeat an argument, well, doesn’t that say everything about you in the first place? |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Jun 3, 2020 0:01:30 GMT
Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but police 'agent provocateurs' have been caught smashing windows, starting fires, smashing up their own cop cars and planting piles of bricks at specific locations...resulting in greater police powers and curfews etc. Amazing. Hegelian Dialectic in action!
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Post by Gassy on Jun 3, 2020 7:34:15 GMT
It'll never happen. When was the last time a UK government stepped up against the US? Unfortunately, we're at the mercy of the US government with Brexit/trade deal - so you can guarantee we'll never do anything to rock the boat. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2020 8:28:53 GMT
It'll never happen. When was the last time a UK government stepped up against the US? Unfortunately, we're at the mercy of the US government with Brexit/trade deal - so you can guarantee we'll never do anything to rock the boat. Once. Late 60s' Harold Wilson refused to back them and get involved in Vietnam. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2020 8:31:10 GMT
Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but police 'agent provocateurs' have been caught smashing windows, starting fires, smashing up their own cop cars and planting piles of bricks at specific locations...resulting in grater police powers and curfews etc. Amazing. Hegelian Dialectic in action! Where is the evidence for this Pirate? |
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pirate
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Post by pirate on Jun 3, 2020 9:08:09 GMT
Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but police 'agent provocateurs' have been caught smashing windows, starting fires, smashing up their own cop cars and planting piles of bricks at specific locations...resulting in grater police powers and curfews etc. Amazing. Hegelian Dialectic in action! Where is the evidence for this Pirate? Infamous umbrella man.   |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2020 12:46:33 GMT
Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but police 'agent provocateurs' have been caught smashing windows, starting fires, smashing up their own cop cars and planting piles of bricks at specific locations...resulting in greater police powers and curfews etc. Amazing. Hegelian Dialectic in action! FFS, you're scouting Hegel now... Good with his head yeah? |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2020 13:43:01 GMT
Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but police 'agent provocateurs' have been caught smashing windows, starting fires, smashing up their own cop cars and planting piles of bricks at specific locations...resulting in greater police powers and curfews etc. Amazing. Hegelian Dialectic in action! Also, the prob with social media is info gets released so quickly and spreads like wild fire... And people make of it what they want to. The cops are doing dirty tricks, but the smashing of window screens is probably because if the glass is cracked they can't see throught it. There are vids of police on the front line kneeling, and protesters think the cops are expressing solidarity and therefore approach them, only to get gassed!... In reality the cops kneel to put on their gas masks, so it looks like a dirty tactic but it's not. I am 100% on the side of the protester's, but there is disinformation everywhere. |
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Post by axegas on Jun 3, 2020 14:13:33 GMT
It'll never happen. When was the last time a UK government stepped up against the US? Unfortunately, we're at the mercy of the US government with Brexit/trade deal - so you can guarantee we'll never do anything to rock the boat. Once. Late 60s' Harold Wilson refused to back them and get involved in Vietnam. Only Labour governments usually have the spine to stand up to the Americans. Shame Blair and Campbell didn't get the message. |
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Post by William Wilson on Jun 3, 2020 15:28:33 GMT
Haven't read through the whole thread yet, but police 'agent provocateurs' have been caught smashing windows, starting fires, smashing up their own cop cars and planting piles of bricks at specific locations...resulting in greater police powers and curfews etc. Amazing. Hegelian Dialectic in action! FFS, you're scouting Hegel now... Good with his head yeah? David Hume could out-consume Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel and Wittgenstein was a beery swine.... |
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Post by wrongsideoftheriver on Jun 3, 2020 21:23:49 GMT
Would we be having this conversation if it had happened to a white man?.
Terrible thing to happen but the whole situation has been blown up to be something it's not in my opinion.
How have they arrived at the conclusion this is racially motivated? I'm sure if I googled it I could find a similar story that relates to a white man being killed in similar fashion from police.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2020 21:57:34 GMT
Would we be having this conversation if it had happened to a white man?. Terrible thing to happen but the whole situation has been blown up to be something it's not in my opinion. How have they arrived at the conclusion this is racially motivated? I'm sure if I googled it I could find a similar story that relates to a white man being killed in similar fashion from police. The story is rightly international news worthy as it’s a killing in very cold blood by someone paid to uphold the law. However I do feel it has created a bandwagon for for BLM to jump on when they aren’t interested in doing the bread and butter day to day work to combat violence afflicting the black community. As just a small example, 39 Black people were shot over the 2020 Memorial Day weekend in Chicago, 10 dead including a 6 year old girl shot. Not shot by police. The question I ask is where were BLM and Beyoncé then? Do black lives only matter when they are taken by police? |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jun 4, 2020 5:18:00 GMT
Would we be having this conversation if it had happened to a white man?. Terrible thing to happen but the whole situation has been blown up to be something it's not in my opinion. How have they arrived at the conclusion this is racially motivated? I'm sure if I googled it I could find a similar story that relates to a white man being killed in similar fashion from police. I'm sure you could, but statistically you are less likely to be killed by the police in the US if you are white. Thems the facts I'm afraid. www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnbc.com/amp/2020/06/01/george-floyd-death-police-violence-in-the-us-in-4-charts.html |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Jun 4, 2020 5:47:58 GMT
Interestingly enough, over 90% of African Americans victims were killed by African Americans. I guess Black lives didnt matter so much then? Furthermore, from what I can see African Americans are responsible for a little over 52% of crime in the US despite representing about 25% of the population with Whites being responsible for around 45%. That said, while it appears that African Americans offend at a higher rate per capita there is good evidence that arrest rates, conviction rates and harsher sentences are higher for African Americans than their White counterparts who have committed similar crimes. This suggests that the criminal justice system in the US does show bias for White offenders and against African Americans. All of this also needs framing within the socioeconomic and educational systems available to different racial groups which again does appear to be weighted favourably towards whites. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_StatesI understand its Wiki but it's an interesting read and some of the references cited are worth a look. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2020 6:07:21 GMT
Would we be having this conversation if it had happened to a white man?. Terrible thing to happen but the whole situation has been blown up to be something it's not in my opinion. How have they arrived at the conclusion this is racially motivated? I'm sure if I googled it I could find a similar story that relates to a white man being killed in similar fashion from police. Have you been living under a rock? It's probably a good thing that the protests are even being noticed by the likes of you, hard to believe people can be so uneducated in the modern era. |
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Post by peterparker on Jun 4, 2020 6:49:09 GMT
The other 3 ex-cops have been charged with aiding and abetting
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Post by peterparker on Jun 4, 2020 7:07:40 GMT
Would we be having this conversation if it had happened to a white man?. Terrible thing to happen but the whole situation has been blown up to be something it's not in my opinion. How have they arrived at the conclusion this is racially motivated? I'm sure if I googled it I could find a similar story that relates to a white man being killed in similar fashion from police. In this case and from the videos with a black man that didnt resist arrest, i would be 99.9% sure their was a racial element to it Its more than just racism though. Its the whole gun culture thing. No doubt some cops are scared, some are just power mad assholes, some are racist, but there policing strategy is just wrong and they are almost above the law if they cite any sort of defence Watch the Philando Castille video if you dare. Going by the officers name, i would assume he isnt white, bit his response was out of proportion. He was dealing with a compliant individual who informed him be had a gun (as per there f**ked up constitution) but he didnt need to be killed, because an officer tbought a compliant man with his kid and missus in the car was reaching for his gun Just poor policing in this instance www.nytimes.com/video/us/100000005176538/dash-camera-shows-moment-philando-castile-is-killed.html |
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Post by wrongsideoftheriver on Jun 4, 2020 10:27:43 GMT
Would we be having this conversation if it had happened to a white man?. Terrible thing to happen but the whole situation has been blown up to be something it's not in my opinion. How have they arrived at the conclusion this is racially motivated? I'm sure if I googled it I could find a similar story that relates to a white man being killed in similar fashion from police. The story is rightly international news worthy as it’s a killing in very cold blood by someone paid to uphold the law. However I do feel it has created a bandwagon for for BLM to jump on when they aren’t interested in doing the bread and butter day to day work to combat violence afflicting the black community. As just a small example, 39 Black people were shot over the 2020 Memorial Day weekend in Chicago, 10 dead including a 6 year old girl shot. Not shot by police. The question I ask is where were BLM and Beyoncé then? Do black lives only matter when they are taken by police?Evidently yes I'd say. its easy PR for celebs to jump on to raise there profile. |
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