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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 1, 2018 7:30:28 GMT
Yeah, a bit over dramatic I know but the point still stands that unless the big 2 get their houses in order they are in danger of leaving a void that can and will be filled with more extreme politicians. I think we've actually gone past the point of no return. I think we are seeing the end of the two-party system in the UK. Let's be honest, Labour are un-electable. Whoever thought that they would turn into a racist, anti-semitic party. They have really taken over the title of the 'nasty party'. The Tories are just not listening, and May's performance over Brexit is an insult to the Democratic process. People have had enough of the lies from both of the main parties. Hugo is right, that in times like these it is usually the extremists who benefit. However, there are many rumours of a 'new party' being formed in the background. They are hoping to attract those moderate Labour MP's, and the more sensible Tories. There are many many people in the UK, when looking at the options available to them to vote for, are openly saying/thinking, "there isn't a party that deserves my vote"! I genuinely don't think the Labour party is anti semetic and racist. I think that it's full of idiotic social justice warriors who don't understand the difference between criticising Israel and hating Jews. Any debate has been stiffled and lost in the avalanche of condemnation from media snowflakes and lobbyists. I also think that part of the problem for Labour is that in electing Corbyn they made a massive mistake. He should be head of whatever the Left equivalent of the BNP is. He is the wrong person to head the Labour party and he has overseen it into a far left shambles. The problem is that the right wing extreme has somewhere to go other than the Tories but the looney left are all running the Labour party. Where do moderate center left voters like me go? |
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Post by jaggas on Aug 1, 2018 7:36:44 GMT
David Lammy and Diane Abbott have come out with blatant racist comments but have got away with it because they happen to be black...Momentum have a racist agenda and they are driving the Labour party.
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 1, 2018 7:47:29 GMT
I don't know anyone who supports Diane Abbott other than the extreme lefties like Momentum.
That's the problem.
If Tommy Robinson or Nick Griffin were in the Tory party you'd have the same problems.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 9:07:52 GMT
I agree that both The Conservative Party and The Labour Party are bring led by political pygmies. But leaders of parties come and go, what remains are the real issues facing society on the UK.
Almost none of these issues are being addressed. In the last two years there has been utter political paralysis in the UK whilst the extremists in the Tory Party hold their own leadership to ransom and Corbyn and his acolytes experiment with wishy washy "back to core values" without ever defining an actual, properly constructed, policy.
In this vacuum what Hugo asserts is correct. Vague absolutist statements become believed as fact, blame culture spreads like a chronic infectious disease, blame immigrants, blame the EU, blame the left, blame the right, lunatics an racists emerge from the shadows to express their views as truth because nobody stands up to them.
You read it on minor, tiny, forums like this one.
What the EU referendum exposed is the deep divisions in society in the UK, driven in the main by the horribly unequal spread of the huge economic gains made as globalisation of trade and ever greater capital movements took hold. Try telling someone living in Stockton on Tees ( as an example) that UK GDP has grown by this or that % when the harsh realities are so much different in their day to day lives. One good example of this is Fintech. So far in 2018 the UK has attracted $16billion in investment, more than Europe, and even more than the USA. Great, right? It is, but it's all gone, in the main, to London and the South East. Since 2012 London has seen a 14% rise in employment, dwarfing the rest of the UK. (Fact check: Study by Sheffield Hallam).
Now, for ardent internationalists like me I would contend, correctly, that this due in no small part to the mature capital markets of a cross border nature, the ability to attract and keep human talent from the talent pool that is the EU, and effective rule of commercial law in the UK.
All of which is of course threatened if we tear up our treaty with the EU.
However, this will not affect Stockton on Tees. So they vote, "So what, tell the EU to eff off". In normal circumstances we would have a choice of voting in a party that says remain in the EU, steady as she goes, and let's distribute the accrued wealth more evenly. Just like 1997 to 2008.
But no, what do we actually have? A government since 2010 that has single handedly made the situation worse for Stockton on Tees. You know the list of acts they have done. All on the mantle of ideological austerity.
Now, as always happens, that Government has screwed itself. The rump of the South East, which grows the economy and pays the taxes is up in arms over Brexit. The north, from The Wash upwards are up in arms over feelings of betrayal and demand a hard leave (in the main).
So we could end up with an economic catastrophe with none of the underlying issues addressed, and we no longer have the economic capacity to address them.
In that scenario Hugo is right. Cue political extremism. It's frighteningly close.
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stuart1974
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Post by stuart1974 on Aug 1, 2018 9:34:49 GMT
Essay: Social media and our busy lifestyles, rather than informing, challenging and educating, reduces informed debate to sound bites and we end up isolating ourselves with like minded people looking for confirmation bias.
Discuss.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 9:58:42 GMT
Essay: Social media and our busy lifestyles, rather than informing, challenging and educating, reduces informed debate to sound bites and we end up isolating ourselves with like minded people looking for confirmation bias. Discuss. As a statement Stuart, I completely agree. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 12:02:26 GMT
Essay: Social media and our busy lifestyles, rather than informing, challenging and educating, reduces informed debate to sound bites and we end up isolating ourselves with like minded people looking for confirmation bias. Discuss. It's a bit difficult for me to surround myself with like-minded people, as a lot of Germans are against Brexit, including my dear wife. In fact, we avoid talking about Brexit now, as it is obvious that your average German hasn't a clue about the EU and how it operates. In Germany, not once have the people been asked about anything regarding the EU. Everything has been done by the politicians without any mandate from the people. Replacing the Deutschmark with the Euro? It just happened. The point I am trying to make is that there has never been a serious debate within Germany regarding the EU. The one thing that has come out of the whole Brexit issue is that I think the British have a greater understanding of the EU, compared to most other countries in the EU. As an example, most Germans think that the EU Parliament make all the decisions! They don't ask questions, they don't probe, they just follow what their 'leaders' tell them to do....even to this day. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 12:28:39 GMT
Essay: Social media and our busy lifestyles, rather than informing, challenging and educating, reduces informed debate to sound bites and we end up isolating ourselves with like minded people looking for confirmation bias. Discuss. It's a bit difficult for me to surround myself with like-minded people, as a lot of Germans are against Brexit, including my dear wife. In fact, we avoid talking about Brexit now, as it is obvious that your average German hasn't a clue about the EU and how it operates. In Germany, not once have the people been asked about anything regarding the EU. Everything has been done by the politicians without any mandate from the people. Replacing the Deutschmark with the Euro? It just happened. The point I am trying to make is that there has never been a serious debate within Germany regarding the EU. The one thing that has come out of the whole Brexit issue is that I think the British have a greater understanding of the EU, compared to most other countries in the EU. As an example, most Germans think that the EU Parliament make all the decisions! They don't ask questions, they don't probe, they just follow what their 'leaders' tell them to do....even to this day. My feedback from friends who are nationals of other EU countries is that they are more likely to see themselves as European and happy to do so. The lack of "connection" with their national governments just highlights the issues with national democratic institutions. It's exactly the same in the UK. I would argue that UK nationals have no more an understanding of the workings of the EU than any other country. What we do have is virulent anti EU press, which is just quoted verbatim by Brexiteers. Exactly in the manner Stuart has indicated in his post. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 13:00:13 GMT
It's a bit difficult for me to surround myself with like-minded people, as a lot of Germans are against Brexit, including my dear wife. In fact, we avoid talking about Brexit now, as it is obvious that your average German hasn't a clue about the EU and how it operates. In Germany, not once have the people been asked about anything regarding the EU. Everything has been done by the politicians without any mandate from the people. Replacing the Deutschmark with the Euro? It just happened. The point I am trying to make is that there has never been a serious debate within Germany regarding the EU. The one thing that has come out of the whole Brexit issue is that I think the British have a greater understanding of the EU, compared to most other countries in the EU. As an example, most Germans think that the EU Parliament make all the decisions! They don't ask questions, they don't probe, they just follow what their 'leaders' tell them to do....even to this day. My feedback from friends who are nationals of other EU countries is that they are more likely to see themselves as European and happy to do so. The lack of "connection" with their national governments just highlights the issues with national democratic institutions. It's exactly the same in the UK. I would argue that UK nationals have no more an understanding of the workings of the EU than any other country. What we do have is virulent anti EU press, which is just quoted verbatim by Brexiteers. Exactly in the manner Stuart has indicated in his post. That's rather a narrow view Oldie, suggesting that people who support Brexit can only quote some newspapers! Why do you use the term 'virulent anti EU press'? Both the Times and the Guardian are pro-EU, so are they 'virulent Pro-EU press'? Isn't 'virulent' a strange term to use? |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 13:10:46 GMT
My feedback from friends who are nationals of other EU countries is that they are more likely to see themselves as European and happy to do so. The lack of "connection" with their national governments just highlights the issues with national democratic institutions. It's exactly the same in the UK. I would argue that UK nationals have no more an understanding of the workings of the EU than any other country. What we do have is virulent anti EU press, which is just quoted verbatim by Brexiteers. Exactly in the manner Stuart has indicated in his post. That's rather a narrow view Oldie, suggesting that people who support Brexit can only quote some newspapers! Why do you use the term 'virulent anti EU press'? Both the Times and the Guardian are pro-EU, so are they 'virulent Pro-EU press'? Isn't 'virulent' a strange term to use? Fair challenge. If I read the Guardian I expect to read a "liberal" social viewpoint. If I read the Times I look forward to very decent economic analysis. So yes, perhaps Stuart is right, I read both of those and it probably reinforces my own viewpoints. But, they are both well written and tend to use analysis based in the real world. Now can you, or anyone,, say that of the Sun, Daily Mail or Express? That they are anti EU is not the point, they are just crap. As such "Virulent" is the correct term. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 13:16:13 GMT
That's rather a narrow view Oldie, suggesting that people who support Brexit can only quote some newspapers! Why do you use the term 'virulent anti EU press'? Both the Times and the Guardian are pro-EU, so are they 'virulent Pro-EU press'? Isn't 'virulent' a strange term to use? Fair challenge. If I read the Guardian I expect to read a "liberal" social viewpoint. If I read the Times I look forward to very decent economic analysis. So yes, perhaps Stuart is right, I read both of those and it probably reinforces my own viewpoints. But, they are both well written and tend to use analysis based in the real world. Now can you, or anyone,, say that of the Sun, Daily Mail or Express? That they are anti EU is not the point, they are just crap. As such "Virulent" is the correct term. I would also lump the Guardian into that crap group as well. It is not well written and it certainly doesn't use analysis based in the real world. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 1, 2018 13:34:43 GMT
I listened to a really interesting interview with David Icke yesterday. Yes, I know...but he was really interesting.
He was talking about social media as exactly what Stuart says.
He also made some really good points about what we are allowed and not allowed to say in society now. How language and thought are policed on both sides.
People in power can't have a proper discussion about race, gender, equality, Brexit, trade, religion, human rights etc.
Its simply controlled and diluted to either sound bites, passed as fake news, derailed into submission by #metoo type things or just whitewashed out of existence.
We literally have not had this poorly informed, poorly educated and so well controlled population in 100s of years.
It's truly worrying.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 13:44:37 GMT
I listened to a really interesting interview with David Icke yesterday. Yes, I know...but he was really interesting. He was talking about social media as exactly what Stuart says. He also made some really good points about what we are allowed and not allowed to say in society now. How language and thought are policed on both sides. People in power can't have a proper discussion about race, gender, equality, Brexit, trade, religion, human rights etc. Its simply controlled and diluted to either sound bites, passed as fake news, derailed into submission by #metoo type things or just whitewashed out of existence. We literally have not had this poorly informed, poorly educated and so well controlled population in 100s of years. It's truly worrying. Exactly |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 1, 2018 13:46:19 GMT
Link to the interview.
No aliens, no lizards and no turquoise.
Promise.
Edit. I should say that I don't agree with everything he says but I did find him thought provoking.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 13:47:57 GMT
Just had this tweet from another gashead, former senior manager in banking. Natural Tory, but sees through the murk.
"At a bit of a loss to understand the News. Hoteliers at top hotel in Stratford upon Avon stating they have 11 vacancies they can't fill following European staff going home. Where are all the people Brexiteers said were being held back from jobs occupied by Eastern Europeans...."
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 13:58:55 GMT
Just had this tweet from another gashead, former senior manager in banking. Natural Tory, but sees through the murk. "At a bit of a loss to understand the News. Hoteliers at top hotel in Stratford upon Avon stating they have 11 vacancies they can't fill following European staff going home. Where are all the people Brexiteers said were being held back from jobs occupied by Eastern Europeans...." I don't think anybody has had a problem with Europeans coming to the UK and working. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 14:07:02 GMT
Link to the interview. No aliens, no lizards and no turquoise. Promise. Edit. I should say that I don't agree with everything he says but I did find him thought provoking. Personally I always listen to people like him and left frustrated because he states a case but doesn't make it. Take the first 8 minutes of this video. He bangs on about CNN, and in fact he is largely correct, they are biased. As is Fox etc. So surely the onus is on us, the general population, to challenge and not accept things on face value. Which loops us back to Brexit. False statements on all sides at the point of voting. Now as facts emerge the challenge is to pro Brexit folks to answer and make the case. But they never do. Because they cannot. So the Sun, Express and the Mail does it for them with thundering headlines of no value and people actually believe it. When you challenge that you get the usual "oh, you are a guardian reader" as if that's a bad thing. I would challenge anyone to buy an issue of the Guardian and one of the three mentioned and do a side by side, like for like comparison. You could not, the depth of analysis and well argued opinion in any of those three is so shallow you would be unable to find it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 14:08:30 GMT
Just had this tweet from another gashead, former senior manager in banking. Natural Tory, but sees through the murk. "At a bit of a loss to understand the News. Hoteliers at top hotel in Stratford upon Avon stating they have 11 vacancies they can't fill following European staff going home. Where are all the people Brexiteers said were being held back from jobs occupied by Eastern Europeans...." I don't think anybody has had a problem with Europeans coming to the UK and working. Really? Immigration was not a major theme? Control of our borders, etc. |
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Post by Hugo the Elder on Aug 1, 2018 14:11:52 GMT
Link to the interview. No aliens, no lizards and no turquoise. Promise. Edit. I should say that I don't agree with everything he says but I did find him thought provoking. Personally I always listen to people like him and left frustrated because he states a case but doesn't make it. Take the first 8 minutes of this video. He bangs on about CNN, and in fact he is largely correct, they are biased. As is Fox etc. So surely the onus is on us, the general population, to challenge and not accept things on face value. Which loops us back to Brexit. False statements on all sides at the point of voting. Now as facts emerge the challenge is to pro Brexit folks to answer and make the case. But they never do. Because they cannot. So the Sun, Express and the Mail does it for them with thundering headlines of no value and people actually believe it. When you challenge that you get the usual "oh, you are a guardian reader" as if that's a bad thing. I would challenge anyone to buy an issue of the Guardian and one of the three mentioned and do a side by side, like for like comparison. You could not, the depth of analysis and well argued opinion in any of those three is so shallow you would be unable to find it. I get what you are saying, I don't think that he is trying to make a case. He's just trying to offer up some starting points for people to go away and think for themselves. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 14:24:35 GMT
Link to the interview. No aliens, no lizards and no turquoise. Promise. Edit. I should say that I don't agree with everything he says but I did find him thought provoking. Personally I always listen to people like him and left frustrated because he states a case but doesn't make it. Take the first 8 minutes of this video. He bangs on about CNN, and in fact he is largely correct, they are biased. As is Fox etc. So surely the onus is on us, the general population, to challenge and not accept things on face value. Which loops us back to Brexit. False statements on all sides at the point of voting. Now as facts emerge the challenge is to pro Brexit folks to answer and make the case. But they never do. Because they cannot. So the Sun, Express and the Mail does it for them with thundering headlines of no value and people actually believe it. When you challenge that you get the usual "oh, you are a guardian reader" as if that's a bad thing. I would challenge anyone to buy an issue of the Guardian and one of the three mentioned and do a side by side, like for like comparison. You could not, the depth of analysis and well argued opinion in any of those three is so shallow you would be unable to find it. Now you are being just as guilty as those you criticize ! You are advocating that the media that supports your personal views are the only ones with 'depth of analysis and well argued opinions' ! As for the Guardian, please! I also look at it every day, as I do with other news outlets. You should open your mind a bit more, look around. I also watch the BBC and Sky, even though they are both (in your words) virulent Pro-EU organisations ! |
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